Author Topic: Pump all summer???  (Read 21672 times)

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Offline distributorguy

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Pump all summer???
« on: April 16, 2016, 09:52:19 PM »
There was talk about pumping brine all summer and raising the course 2 1/2" for next year (no 2016 racing.)  Is there a cut-off date when that decision could or would be made, or was that just "talk"?   
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Offline Freud

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Re: Pump all summer???
« Reply #1 on: April 18, 2016, 10:32:11 PM »
I think pumping has stopped now.

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Offline Milwaukee Midget

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Re: Pump all summer???
« Reply #2 on: April 19, 2016, 12:13:46 AM »
Tom Burkland put that out as a proposal at the PRI show starting at about 58 minutes into this video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wkuxy1fc5OI

The non-binding show of hands indicated a fair degree of support.  Unfortunately, any such change would have required a timely presentation of the draft proposal by the Alliance based on an engineering analysis they have been putting together and agreement between the mining concern and the BLM - a draft that we were told would be available 6 weeks after the show.  It was announced on April 7th, although the Alliance website makes no mention of that, nor did they provide a copy to those whose support they are trying to encourage.

Any opportunity to investigate and/or make the case to implement the proposal has languished, and now that we're pushing into May, any such proposal has to be tabled for 2016.

Gut level, I think Tom's idea is solid, and that an opportunity for 2016 has been missed.


Added - The Alliance met on March 25 and the the proposal was to be finalized on April 1st.  Has anybody seen it, and would they be willing to share it?
« Last Edit: April 19, 2016, 12:42:31 AM by Milwaukee Midget »
"Problems are almost always a sign of progress."  Harold Bettes
Well, I guess we're making a LOT of progress . . .  :roll:

Offline crawford

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Re: Pump all summer???
« Reply #3 on: April 19, 2016, 12:11:00 PM »
pump all summer? That was really a proposal, and how would that raise the level of the salt 2 inches. Some times I wonder if people really think this stuff through. I find it interesting that the people making these proposals are never out here looking and researching the flats through out the year. They only show up if the press is here, and they have meeting everywhere but at the site of their interest. Hmmm just makes me a sad panda, what I have really been trying to handle this past two years are all the negitive vibs from outside our area. The Bonneville salt flats need help, but by people who have a real interest, and also needs local support, because that where all the real difference will happen.
Current Mayor of Wendover Utah, and life long race fan. owns Wendover Carquest auto-parts.

Offline Bob Drury

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Re: Pump all summer???
« Reply #4 on: April 19, 2016, 02:57:23 PM »
  Mike, despite what a few have said on here previously, WE ARE ON YOUR SIDE.  What 98% of Us want is what You also want.
  Please try to understand that probably 90% of the L.S.R. community has every extra penny they can afford invested in their Racing Program.  Some completed their Race Vehicles three years ago and have not yet had the opportunity to even walk on the Salt.  We racers with the help of The Utah Alliance and area politicians and hopefully Yourself, are working hard to work out a fix that is good for everyone.
  We realize as do You that without local support our efforts most likely will be doomed or at the very least be much harder.
  Many of Us patronize Your business at every event and if You haven't taken it down there is a picture of My 53' Stude hanging on your wall.
  My point here is this:  There will always be well meaning folks who don't agree with the majority.  I have been one of those who are willing to take on the masses however NOT on this latest Proposal between Save The Salt/The Utah Alliance, The BLM, Intrepid and various other groups involved.
   Every one involved has worked very hard to try and resolve our differences and I would ask that ALL of Us, You and I and even the dissenters to just step back and let the process work its way forward.
  No one person is going to solve or change a da*n thing by themselves nor agree with every one else's opinion.  It is of no help to anybody to add fuel to the fire. 
  We are all in this together.
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Offline Milwaukee Midget

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Re: Pump all summer???
« Reply #5 on: April 19, 2016, 03:01:29 PM »
Mike, if the idea had not been proffered by Tom Burkland, someone we both know has been integral in the restoration efforts, I doubt it would have been taken seriously.  He brings to the discussion we attended long experience and an engineer's mindset.

You're on the ground with this and involved in creating a solution - where was the fly in the ointment on this idea?  Was it even looked at?  If it's not viable, why is it not viable? 

We're on the same side, but we've been given a plethora of statistics and information, and have been largely left to our own devices to draw a conclusion as to the correct method to proceed.  I've been waiting to see what the Alliance has put together for 3 months - I want to support a concerted effort - and my senator is still waiting for me to send a copy of that proposal to her.  When asked about proposals, those leading this effort tell us to read the information.  When asked for a leaderships' opinion or plan - we get nothing. 

I've read through the documents provided - LOTS of information there - sufficient in quantity that any dozen reasonable people could easily come up with 12 different solutions, all with different degrees of viability to succeed.

I'll jump behind and push for any viable plan put forward.  But there's no plan yet.

I'm sad, too.


"Problems are almost always a sign of progress."  Harold Bettes
Well, I guess we're making a LOT of progress . . .  :roll:

Offline distributorguy

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Re: Pump all summer???
« Reply #6 on: April 19, 2016, 04:56:32 PM »
I didn't think this post would start another argument.  I guess it just exposes a little more of the knife edge we are ALL dancing on.   The goal was just to find out the likelihood of restoration efforts stopping races this year, as opposed to the always indecisive weather (and track conditions) excluded.  I just want to race, on good salt - like everyone else.   :?
Insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results. 
Racing is the evil modification of insanity.

Offline Bob Drury

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Re: Pump all summer???
« Reply #7 on: April 19, 2016, 07:44:11 PM »
  Dist. Guy,  Whether or not some people on this site  care for Land Speed Louise, No one can deny that She will keep Us informed and have the latest information posted on this site before anyone else.  She work's Her patootie off promoting this sport and is the publicist for The Utah Alliance. 
  As I said in a previous post, the rest of us need to ready our musket's and when it's time Louise will yell "CHARGE".  As Midget said, for now We can continue to keep our local States Senator's and Representatives in the loop and urge them to become educated on the subject.    Bob
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Offline wobblywalrus

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Re: Pump all summer???
« Reply #8 on: April 20, 2016, 01:06:15 AM »
It might work best to raise the salt level gradually over a period of years rather than all at once.  The incremental approach allows the lower layers to season and consolidate before the upper layers are added. 

Offline WhizzbangK.C.

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Re: Pump all summer???
« Reply #9 on: April 20, 2016, 09:32:09 AM »
I'll probably get shouted down and called out for even putting in my $.02, but I've got nothing to lose, so here goes.   :dhorse:

I don't know why this option seems to draw the ire of some folks. It seems apparent to me the only viable plan is pumping in the summer.

We know that they can't pump a fully saturated brine due to the excessive wear on the pumping equipment. Therefore any brine pumped is not fully saturated. If pumping is done in the winter, when the flats are already flooded with cold fresh water from rain and snow run off from the mountains, then it is diluted even more. A diluted solution will not precipitate out. Also, the cold temps slow evaporation quite a bit. This means that anything pumped more than likely just filters through the pan and back into the extraction wells, pulling more salt with it as it does become saturated. It may slow the loss, but I can't see it actually adding anything.

Pumping in the summer, however, may actually add to the surface salt layer. The pumped water would be warmer, and able to carry more salt per volume without being fully saturated. A mostly dry salt flats would also not dilute it further. The warmer water, and warmer air, would create accelerated evaporation on the surface, which would quickly result in an over-saturated condition and salt precipitation onto the surface, where we need it to be. We've all seen how fast a few inches of water can evaporate after a summer rain when the sun and wind hits it. If this water was saturated with salt when it was put on the flats, just imagine what would happen. It seems like it would at least be worth some testing to see what would happen. Heck, put a dike a few inches high around an acre or so and pump brine onto it for a bit. See what happens. Couldn't be too hard to accomplish for a proof of concept experiment.
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Offline bbarn

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Re: Pump all summer???
« Reply #10 on: April 20, 2016, 11:58:12 AM »
I'll probably get shouted down and called out for even putting in my $.02, but I've got nothing to lose, so here goes.   :dhorse:

I don't know why this option seems to draw the ire of some folks. It seems apparent to me the only viable plan is pumping in the summer.

We know that they can't pump a fully saturated brine due to the excessive wear on the pumping equipment. Therefore any brine pumped is not fully saturated. If pumping is done in the winter, when the flats are already flooded with cold fresh water from rain and snow run off from the mountains, then it is diluted even more. A diluted solution will not precipitate out. Also, the cold temps slow evaporation quite a bit. This means that anything pumped more than likely just filters through the pan and back into the extraction wells, pulling more salt with it as it does become saturated. It may slow the loss, but I can't see it actually adding anything.

Pumping in the summer, however, may actually add to the surface salt layer. The pumped water would be warmer, and able to carry more salt per volume without being fully saturated. A mostly dry salt flats would also not dilute it further. The warmer water, and warmer air, would create accelerated evaporation on the surface, which would quickly result in an over-saturated condition and salt precipitation onto the surface, where we need it to be. We've all seen how fast a few inches of water can evaporate after a summer rain when the sun and wind hits it. If this water was saturated with salt when it was put on the flats, just imagine what would happen. It seems like it would at least be worth some testing to see what would happen. Heck, put a dike a few inches high around an acre or so and pump brine onto it for a bit. See what happens. Couldn't be too hard to accomplish for a proof of concept experiment.

I think it is going to take full year of pumping and closing off of the ditches to get back to a suitable racing surface. In conversation with/around Tom at the PRI show this year he was sharing his data. The facts he presented were very compelling and knowing Tom they were likely very accurate.

There are a few steps that need to be taken, but in order to get any meaningful material movement from one side of the highway to another looks like we need a long pumping session through the hottest part of the season.

I am usually not a half-empty kind of guy but I am very skeptical of what we will get this year to race on. Based on the last three years of data alone I feel like there will be a short course or two and not enough surface to get the big liners out to run. I sure hope I am wrong and I wouldn't take it as a credible prognostication...just a gut feeling. More will be revealed as we get closer to July.

That said, if there isn't a racing surface this year and we missed the opportunity to pump +2" of surface back and the plan to do a full year pumping is done in 2017 we may have a lot longer to go to get to run on the salt.  :cry:
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Offline Bob Drury

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Re: Pump all summer???
« Reply #11 on: April 20, 2016, 12:49:00 PM »
  Guy's, just remember that We Racer's have no say in the pumping.  That is what The Alliance and others are trying to make happen amongst other things.
  We just All need to remember that We are dealing with bureaucracy and they are as usual worried about their jobs.  We need Sally Jewell to step up and do Her Job.
  Next November, whomever wins the Presidential Election will no doubt appoint someone else to shuffle papers with (unfortunately) probably the same stalling results.
  We need to keep pressure on the Department of the Interior (Mz. Jewell) to lean on the BLM to play ball and do so on a level playing field.
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Offline hotrod

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Re: Pump all summer???
« Reply #12 on: April 20, 2016, 08:03:43 PM »
WhizzbangK.C.
Pumping in the summer, however, may actually add to the surface salt layer. The pumped water would be warmer, and able to carry more salt per volume without being fully saturated. A mostly dry salt flats would also not dilute it further. The warmer water, and warmer air, would create accelerated evaporation on the surface, which would quickly result in an over-saturated condition and salt precipitation onto the surface, where we need it to be. We've all seen how fast a few inches of water can evaporate after a summer rain when the sun and wind hits it. If this water was saturated with salt when it was put on the flats, just imagine what would happen. It seems like it would at least be worth some testing to see what would happen. Heck, put a dike a few inches high around an acre or so and pump brine onto it for a bit. See what happens. Couldn't be too hard to accomplish for a proof of concept experiment.


I think you are on the right track with that observation. As I have mentioned before in these discussions there are two ways to change the salt saturation level in the pumped brine. Evaporation and temperature change. When temps are high and winds are present, evaporation is high but the higher temperatures make the salt more soluble (ie the saturation can actually drop as the brine heats up and water is evaporated.) Cooling the brine also will increase the saturation as solubility goes down with temperature.

So the ideal situation would be to pump hot brine over the highway and then let it concentrate by both evaporation and cooling. That would cause the maximum amount of salt to crystallize and precipitate out of solution. If the salt brine was allowed to concentrate in a solar warming pond prior to being pumped and pumped intermittently in the late afternoon, you would create that situation as that brine cooled over night.

The only way to refine the process to get the maximum amount of salt to drop out of solution as halite crystals is to do some testing with some small test areas as you mentioned.

For example build two small dikes that extend from the road near lands end all the way to the highway to form a small concentrating pond south and west of the lands end where brine could be pumped and allowed to concentrate in the summer time, then when it reaches full saturation, instead of pumping it, open a sluice gate in the dike and let that super saturated brine flow by gravity out onto the salt. It would also raise the local water table near that dike and saturated brine would wick to the surface near the test pond and evaporate on the surface, leaving behind its salt payload.

I would bet one of the Utah colleges would be happy to set up a test recovery operation using graduate students in geology and chemistry to manage such a restoration test.
You can learn more in one summer with some small test ponds like that on the north side of the highway than you could with several multimillion dollar "studies".

Once you get that salt out onto the crust on the north side of the highway into the test ponds, then during the winter the precipitation would actually work for you instead of against you by redistributing that local salt build up out over the racing surface.

Doing those tests there south of lands end on the mud flats to the highway would also restore salt in one of the places we need it most on the southern end of the international race course and the high traffic area at lands end.

Just like a farmer tending irrigation a single person or small team of a few students could observe and manage that sluice gate in the test pond dike so that the water was only released in amounts that could quickly evaporate and deposit a sheet of salt onto that nearly barren area of the flats.


We need to pressure BLM to approve testing on recovery methods. Stop talking about doing something and actually try a few things. We might get a pleasant surprise, and find an effective method to restore the salt quickly.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2016, 08:09:56 PM by hotrod »

Offline nrhs sales

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Re: Pump all summer???
« Reply #13 on: April 22, 2016, 03:40:07 PM »
would seem to me that you could just bring in 20 dump trucks of salt a day and spread it out with a dozer and get the same effect in a few months.  20 trucks a day times say 60 days layed down in the areas that are most critical would seem to be more effective in providing a racing surface than just pumping brine that flows to the lowest areas which are probably not where we actually need the salt.  Or is the issue way more complicated and this is way to simple to work?
« Last Edit: April 22, 2016, 03:50:53 PM by nrhs sales »

Offline distributorguy

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Re: Pump all summer???
« Reply #14 on: April 22, 2016, 03:58:27 PM »
Just doing some quick math on that. 
3 months, hauling 20 11 yard loads a day, 5 days a week, 20 days a month.
Equates to a 2" lift on a 22' wide course, 3 miles long.  Lots fuel for one race course that you don't want to drift off the edge of.  And as soon as it gets wet, its spreads out and you have 1/8" salt or less. 

You'd move a LOT more salt with water flowing 24 hours a day.  The truck idea would help for land's end, but its a band-aid not a solution. 
Insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results. 
Racing is the evil modification of insanity.