REPLENISHMENT OF SALT

[widgeon]

MAYBE THIS OUGHT TO BE A QUESTION THAT THE MODERATORS ASK OF THE REPUBLICAN CANDIDATES IN THE NEXT DEBATE? MAYBE TRUMPS THE GUY WE ASK.  I WOULD BET THERE WOULD BE NO B.S. IN HIS REPLY. EITHER GET IT DONE OR NOT AND BYPASS ALL OF THE PARASITES AND WASTE IN WASHINGTON!  JUST A THOUGHT.......

[crawford]

Yes the usgs study was interesting, but its dated, I'm not saying that the surface is not thinning, but I think that their study was based on mor computer simulations than actual, there are several other factors that need to be considered, one wind loss of the crust, roads stopping the flow ect. But then again I did make it through the 8th grade. Look I'm all for the saving of the salt flats and the racing on them, but we need to come up with a plan that works with everyone's needs, and one that will work, I'm very concerned with the conditions because this is my home. Oh and by the way I did make it past the 8th grade, and no I'm not a rocket scientist.

[Polyhead]

so the surface salt is going back into the brine clay and being pump out, wow, you really don't know alot about the salt flats.

Model simulations, in which the
1992 rate of withdrawal from the
brine-collection ditch east of the salt
crust and average climatic conditions
were used, indicate that brine
withdrawal is a major cause of salt
loss from the crust. Other than the
cycling of fluid and solute through the
playa surface each year, subsurface
brine flow and solute transport to the
brine-collection ditches east and south
of the salt crust are the largest
contributors to salt removal from the
shallow-brine aquifer. Model
simulations do not account for the
occasional loss of salt from the crust
by extensive flooding described
previously.

In English - Water is moving salt from one place to another. It does this by dissolving salt into a solution and uses natural water flow to transport the salt. Water that is already saturated will not pickup more salt. Water that falls as rain can dissolve the most salt as it likely has very low amounts of dissolved salt in solution. Water that is mechanically pumped cannot contain the maximum saturation level of salt because the mechanical action lowers the saturation point of the solution.

Therefore, fresh and pumped water onto the salt surface dissolves salt. Proof of this is that the mining companies use a brine solution to move what they are mining from point A to point B. The aquifer under the flats is a brine aquifer, that means it has salt in it.

How do you think that salt got there? You think the ocean flows under the lake bed?

The water that falls or is pumped onto the racing surface dissolves the salt and moves it into the aquifer either through collection ditches or through natural leeching into the soil. This is not rocket surgery, sorcery or witchcraft but rather basic 8th grade natural science.

Uh.. man... the bulk of these people DO believe in witchcraft and sorcery... so... yeah.... I follow you, you're right, and there is another point here that nobody is making but everyone should be making to the BLM.

The racing surface is a matrix.  It's a crystal structure that is a mix of different metallic salts.  Even if you DID pump every last single fucking drop of sodium chloride back onto that surface it's not going to be what it use to be.  It starts to become a homogenious crystaline matrix and it's going to be soft.  Just like if you process every last impurity out of iron.  But we tend not to build things out of pure iron because it's not very durable that way.  A bit of carbon, a bit of other varoius metals, often times totalling less than %1 of the entire alloy, compleatly changes the behavior of the material.  Salt is no different.  The mining operation is removing potassium chloride and probably other metalic chlorides and that is going to have a noticable affect on the properties of the surface.  There are other salt beds in the world, none of them seem to work as well Bonneville.  It may well be that the same thing that made bonneville a great racing surface is also what made the potash mining operation profitable, IE, unusually high levels of potassium.

[Steve Cole]

 There is no doubt the surface has thinned and it doesn't take much to see that. It isn't a few inches and I am sure a 4th or 5th grader can tell that, if shown a few before and after photo's that are out there in the public domain. The simple fact that the BLM is trying it's best to say that's not the case, is the problem here. Wendover is afraid of losing the income from employment, taxes and such but let's face it, they are not only going to lose that, but much much more when the salt is all gone. This isn't a short term fix needed but yet a long term and people are going to have to suffer if the Salt Flats are to be saved, if it can be at all.

 Wendover doesn't survive from the racers but they do from the Salt Flats being there, so they are screwed either way. All one really needs to do is go back to the currently documented predictions that have been made over the last 50 years or so and guess what, it's all coming true NOW! So we all need to get the government to stop whats going on or just sit back and let the last nail be pounded, then change all the road signs, maps ect, to the FORMER HOME OF THE BONNEVILLE SALT FLATS. There will be no salt flats left, so no travelers to come see it, No mining company's jobs as there is nothing left to mine, Casino's shutting down as no profits left and Wendover along with many other small towns will most likely dry up and die, as no one is going to travel to see the former home of the salt flats.

 So we all need to look out past our life times and do something about it, NOW, so those in the future people can enjoy what we have.

[Ron Gibson]

Mike
  I would have to believe that the USGS's statement about the salt crust being 7 feet thick in 1960 would be based on how much salt they had to bore through with the drilling rig shown in the picture.
  I know for a fact that we used to drive off the end of the road, even into deep brine, on to rock solid salt on the bottom, and not the mud and sink holes as at the 2014 USFRA meet. They can call it any thing they want but it was still MUD.
  If there is 118,000,000 tons of hard salt in pond 5 (per Roger L's post in poor salt conditions), how much is there in all of their ponds and piles combined? How did it get there and where did it come from, Fairy Dust?
  Seems to me that if Intrepid is pumping brine back, but not saturated brine, and part of the year pumping back south, it will only take about a hundred years or so to replace some of the salt.
  It can never be completely restored (restore means return to original condition) because they can't replace the millions of tons that has been sold and hauled off.
  As far as the claim that the salt is as thick as it always was, I saw a picture on the site (tried to find it no luck) of a DC-3 parked on the salt at one of the old record attempts. I wouldn't try to land one out there today.

Ron
 
 
 

[joea]

Yeah BBarn, Ron etal...you need to consider "wind loss of the salt crust"...

[Freud]

In the past the center line (the long black line) was established with ribbons

tied to nails that were about 3/8" in diameter and 6+ inches long. Those

nails were drive with an 8# beater and it took powerful swings to drive them.

They did not go thru the layer of salt. As recently as 15 years ago dragging

of the course would remove one of those nails.

I think it would now be difficult to find salt that thick anywhere out there.

Ask the Vescos. They know. Probably Burkdolls also. And Wester.


FREUD

[crawford]

There is no doubt the surface has thinned and it doesn't take much to see that. It isn't a few inches and I am sure a 4th or 5th grader can tell that, if shown a few before and after photo's that are out there in the public domain. The simple fact that the BLM is trying it's best to say that's not the case, is the problem here. Wendover is afraid of losing the income from employment, taxes and such but let's face it, they are not only going to lose that, but much much more when the salt is all gone. This isn't a short term fix needed but yet a long term and people are going to have to suffer if the Salt Flats are to be saved, if it can be at all.

 Wendover doesn't survive from the racers but they do from the Salt Flats being there, so they are screwed either way. All one really needs to do is go back to the currently documented predictions that have been made over the last 50 years or so and guess what, it's all coming true NOW! So we all need to get the government to stop whats going on or just sit back and let the last nail be pounded, then change all the road signs, maps ect, to the FORMER HOME OF THE BONNEVILLE SALT FLATS. There will be no salt flats left, so no travelers to come see it, No mining company's jobs as there is nothing left to mine, Casino's shutting down as no profits left and Wendover along with many other small towns will most likely dry up and die, as no one is going to travel to see the former home of the salt flats.

 So we all need to look out past our life times and do something about it, NOW, so those in the future people can enjoy what we have.

  wow you do realize that this and has been a casino town for the last 25 years, which means that we do not  need the Bonneville Salt Flats to stay around, but because it is part of our history in more ways than the racing, we would like to keep the flats around. But its people like you that think we don't care as much as you, who I don't even know that well. So like I have said before and will say again, the racers are important to us, but not as much as you think.

[crawford]

Its people like Steve Cole, that make me really sad! They know nothing about the area but just have to tell the people of wendover how much they mean to our lives, even through its only one week a year, how do we make it through the other 51 weeks, hmmmm should just give up and move, Dodge and this was looking like one of my better years in retail, oh well, Steve has done our business plan for us, so the casino's are doomed! You guys are still not getting it, I love the Bonneville Salt Flats, Its part of me, so I get alittle touchy when people who don't know what they are talking about, like Steve cole. Get a clue if the salt flats are going to be saved don't you think your going to need local help? Just saying.........

[joea]

It isn't unnoticed that efforts to "Save the Salt" , has been primarily an effort by racers and the sanctioning bodies ...whereas efforts that have diminished and destroyed the Bonneville salt flats have been primarily from local entities that live there

Supported  by past and current legislation ...

it also isn't unnoticed the support many local businesses have for the racers when in town, during the SIX or more scheduled lsr events each year

[Steve Cole]

Its people like Steve Cole, that make me really sad! They know nothing about the area but just have to tell the people of wendover how much they mean to our lives, even through its only one week a year, how do we make it through the other 51 weeks, hmmmm should just give up and move, Dodge and this was looking like one of my better years in retail, oh well, Steve has done our business plan for us, so the casino's are doomed! You guys are still not getting it, I love the Bonneville Salt Flats, Its part of me, so I get alittle touchy when people who don't know what they are talking about, like Steve cole. Get a clue if the salt flats are going to be saved don't you think your going to need local help? Just saying.........

I think you need to open your eye's! If you think I don't have a clue, to bad on you. The data has been around for years, (all publicly documented) predictions of the demise of the salt have been around for years (again all publicly documented) and please show/tell me what the Locals have done about it for the last 25 years? So far, It's the racing community that has been pushing this forward, not the locals.

So you've had casino's for 25 years and you've had a salt flats for a million years + that are NOW disappearing and turning into mud pits. Do you really think people will come there for the casino's and mud pits? Vegas and Reno will take the visitors for gambling long before Wendover. Why is it the room cost all triple or more, during the racing events? If the mines shut down (due to no mining allowed)and the casino's shut down (due to no people coming to visiting the salt flats, year round) please explain to us what's left. Do you think ignoring the problem that is right in front of you in brown and white is going to make it go away?

Look, it's time we all did something about this and the racers are doing the best we can and moving it forward but if the locals cannot see how much more they are going to lose if the salt disappears, can't say you were not warned. We all want to be able to race at Bonneville and also would like to give our children the same chance. To do that the Locals and the Racers had better get involved NOW and push this or we all lose. So far it's been the racers and racing community doing the work and it's time the locals had better step it up and get involved, again this is not my opinion but the simple facts!

If you really love the Bonneville Salt Flats, as you claim, it's time to put on your big boy pants and get the real information out to all the locals and get them all involved to the level the Racers and Racing community have already done. Then maybe we have a chance of saving the Bonneville Salt Flats for ALL! Just saying.........

[noboD]

Why does every discussion have to turn into a pissing contest?

[Speed Limit 1000]

Steve. I have been racing on the salt since 1973. I have known Mike Crawford for a lot of years. Mike has helped quite a few racers over the years. He even opened Car Quest very late one night to get a tube patch kit for some racers. He does care. The gamblers mostly drive to Wendover from the east. The mine only employs about 40 people. It will take an act of congress to get anything good to get started to restore the flats.

John 

[Steve Cole]

Steve. I have been racing on the salt since 1973. I have known Mike Crawford for a lot of years. Mike has helped quite a few racers over the years. He even opened Car Quest very late one night to get a tube patch kit for some racers. He does care. The gamblers mostly drive to Wendover from the east. The mine only employs about 40 people. It will take an act of congress to get anything good to get started to restore the flats.

John 

I'm not saying Mike has not helped racers at all! What I am saying is if the Locals do not see this as a major problem for there local economy they are sadly mistaken. Since Mike is the mayor, as I understand it, I would think he should be very concerned and getting all the locals on-board ASAP. Let's face it Wendover is a tourist town for a very very large part of there income and if anyone thinks otherwise all you need to do is look at the reports to find it out. How long does anyone think the casino's are going to stay if the profits are not there? With the economy the way it's been going for the last 5 -7 years look at the shape the Casino's in Wendover are in, and that's not a dig at anyone, it's just the way it is. My first trip to the salt for racing was back in 1969 as a pit crew helper, so I have seen the changes over the years. While I wish I could have come every year that's not been the case, but I've seen enough over the years to watch the Salt disappearing. I can remember drilling holes in the salt to drive screws in that were in the 8" length range and NEVER hitting anything but rock hard salt!

As far as restoring the Salt Flats its going to take a bigger cross section of people than just the race community to even think about getting congress off there a$$ to do anything about it. Let's face it the BLM wants another 10 year study done before they do anything and in 10 more years I predict it's going to be too late at the rate it's now disappearing.

If the Locals and the media do not get heavily involve now, it doesn't have a chance!

[salt]

Save Bonneville - stop the mining now!

Sorry, I have a one-track mind.
Willi