Author Topic: New Governing body for the fastest wheeldriven cars and bikes?  (Read 27237 times)

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Offline Malcolm UK

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New Governing body for the fastest wheeldriven cars and bikes?
« on: February 01, 2016, 01:10:00 PM »
Whilst the phrase 'Ultimate' has been used by the new World Land Speed Record Association in describing who they are trying to attract, the organisation has listed four classes fo the quickest wheeldriven speed contenders who do not want to follow the FIA rules - or indeed the SCTA/BNI rules.

Abstract from www.wlsra.com:

"Vehicle Classes

Records may be certified based on the following categories:

    Thrust powered, multiple engine, 4 or more wheels.
    Thrust powered, single engine, 4 or more wheels.
    Thrust powered, multiple engine, 3 or fewer wheels.
    Thrust powered, single engine, 3 or fewer wheels.
    Wheel driven, multiple engine, 4 or more wheels.
    Wheel driven, single engine, 4 or more wheels.
    Wheel driven, multiple engine, 3 or fewer wheels.
    Wheel driven, single engine, 3 or fewer wheels.
    Hovercraft.
    Unlimited watercraft."

Apart from NAE, Aussie Invader and Carbinite, I do not know which US or overseas teams are going to join the WLSRA.


Malcolm UK, Derby, England.

Offline Polyhead

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Re: New Governing body for the fastest wheeldriven cars and bikes?
« Reply #1 on: February 01, 2016, 07:12:48 PM »
Good luck to them.  Make the events enjoyable and in interested.
Ben 'Polyhead' Smith
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Offline tallguy

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Re: New Governing body for the fastest wheeldriven cars and bikes?
« Reply #2 on: February 02, 2016, 07:18:31 PM »
I was led to believe that one reason for a new organization for the absolute land speed record
is to permit more elapsed time between runs in opposite directions.  I have a comment and a
question about this particular point.

Surely it will make it easier to do, allowing more time for deceleration, turnaround, re-fueling, etc.

But can one legitimately compare a "modern" record against an earlier one, if the "modern" rules
make it easier to do the deed?

(Makes me wonder about baseball parks that have different distances from home plate to the
outfield fence . . . maybe there's some inequality here.)

Generally, I do think more time should be allowed (in theory, the quick turnaround is to compensate
for wind).  But not a lot more time.   Maybe 2 hours, instead of 1 would be appropriate.  And yes,
I realize that not all land speed racing organizations require just one hour in all circumstances.

Perhaps the elapsed time "between opposite-direction runs" could start when the vehicle stops
rolling at the end of the first of the two runs, and the measured elapsed time could stop when the
vehicle starts moving on the return run.  I think this would make sense.  Currently, I think the clock
starts running while the vehicle is in the traps (perhaps at the end of the measured mile).


Offline tortoise

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Re: New Governing body for the fastest wheeldriven cars and bikes?
« Reply #3 on: February 02, 2016, 08:08:45 PM »
From section 2.6 of the WLSRA timing protocol:

" The lengths of travel (D1 and D2) by which velocities (V1 and V2) are established, approaches but shall not exceed one mile. Since an exact mile is impossible to resolve between precise points in time, the closest points that encompass an exact mile shall be used for T1, T2, and T3, T4 respectively."

Shouldn't that be "shall not be less than"?
« Last Edit: February 02, 2016, 08:44:47 PM by tortoise »

Offline Seldom Seen Slim

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Re: New Governing body for the fastest wheeldriven cars and bikes?
« Reply #4 on: February 03, 2016, 10:09:37 AM »
Tallguy, I think the FIA/FIM timing window (one hour "cars" and two hours "bikes") starts when the entry clock light is tripped -- and ends when the exit light clock senses the vehicle's passing through the end of the timed stretch.

I remember hearing the audio recording from Thrust SSC, on AM1610 during a shutdown of an event, and hearing the timing official report that "I'm sorry, but you exited the timed stretch just 37 (or whatever) seconds after the one hour window ended."

Well, that's certainly not a direct quote but does carry the meaning of what I heard.
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Offline kiwi belly tank

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Re: New Governing body for the fastest wheeldriven cars and bikes?
« Reply #5 on: February 03, 2016, 11:33:23 AM »
That is correct, it starts when you enter the timed mile on the down run & stops when you exit the same timed mile on the return run. In the 90's we actually missed the one hour window by six seconds on a return run with good MPH.
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Offline fredvance

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Re: New Governing body for the fastest wheeldriven cars and bikes?
« Reply #6 on: February 03, 2016, 11:36:05 AM »
It never made sense, to me, that bikes got two hours and cars one hour. And I am a bike guy.
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Offline Seldom Seen Slim

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Re: New Governing body for the fastest wheeldriven cars and bikes?
« Reply #7 on: February 03, 2016, 11:46:24 AM »
Thanks, Sid.  Yeah -- on the Thrust tape you can hear the cheering folks in the background - suddenly go quiet when they heard the announcement that they'd missed by just a tiny bit of time.
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Offline Stan Back

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Re: New Governing body for the fastest wheeldriven cars and bikes?
« Reply #8 on: February 03, 2016, 11:48:47 AM »
I guess the FIM and the FIA are two separate bodies.

And then there's Major League Baseball with two leagues.  And the Designated Hitter rule for one league and not the other.   Try justifying that one to someone.
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Offline Richard 2

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Re: New Governing body for the fastest wheeldriven cars and bikes?
« Reply #9 on: February 03, 2016, 12:37:53 PM »
I did a quick read of the Rules. There is no map or lay out of the Track, such as T1 to T2 and T3 To T4. And I don't see where the rules say you have to run the same physical timed Mile. So the Question is can you run Both Time miles one after the other in one run?
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Offline tortoise

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Re: New Governing body for the fastest wheeldriven cars and bikes?
« Reply #10 on: February 03, 2016, 01:21:13 PM »
I see three issues with the proposed timing protocols that would raise questions of fairness comparing records to historical performances.
 
1. rescinding the one hour rule.
2. not requiring 2 directional runs over the same mile.
3. allowing the fastest measured (by GPS) mile in the run, rather than a pre-designated two points (formerly called "the lights"), to count as the record.

On the first point, someone suggested that this rule was to ensure that one couldn't wait for a tailwind in both directions. I think there's more to it than that. The record is for automobiles, and it's supposed to advance the art. A reliable car ought to be able to go back and do it again. If the cars can't do it, the blame is not on the rules but on the cars.

On the second point, the SCTA doesn't require  it, and that's a strong argument that two way runs should go away. The Bonneville Salt Flats may never again have a 12 mile usable track. We want to keep running, at least wheel-driven cars, on the flats.  Arguably, trying to run a FIA style course there has been fatal. Good idea.

Third point. I think the entrant or organizer should have to pre-designate the course, and make P1 and P2 the closest points before and after the designated mile. I don't see a compelling safety reason to soften the traditional requirement. 

YMMV






Offline Seldom Seen Slim

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Re: New Governing body for the fastest wheeldriven cars and bikes?
« Reply #11 on: February 03, 2016, 02:46:20 PM »
Tortoise said:  "...A reliable car ought to be able to go back and do it again. If the cars can't do it, the blame is not on the rules but on the cars. "

But an hour for not just the runs but servicing at the end of run one?

At a Shootout a few years ago it was poetry in motion to watch the Burkland crew working on the car at the end of the down run.  Tom followed the carefully drawn lines in the salt to drive the car right up onto a turntable as he came to a stop.  Crew members then attacked the car - body panels, plugs, fuel, etc - walking backwards or forwards to move with the car as it turned.  Talk about a ballet!!!

But with all of the stuff that absolutely HAD to be done between runs and still have time for unexpected issues during that turnaround -- the turntable event was one way to try to get everything done in the allotted time.

And, to add to the relaxed atmosphere, was one of the Rice Brothers calling out the remaining time before the end of the window.

Nah, no pressure at all. :roll: :cheers:
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Offline kiwi belly tank

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Re: New Governing body for the fastest wheeldriven cars and bikes?
« Reply #12 on: February 03, 2016, 03:20:07 PM »
SCTA eliminated the return run from coming back towards Wendover after Nolan's crash for safety reasons but the point to be recognized here is that SCTA is not claiming World Records so it's not necessary to run the same rules as FIA.
Both SCTA & USFRA changed to the same new rules to stay aligned with each other.
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Offline tortoise

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Re: New Governing body for the fastest wheeldriven cars and bikes?
« Reply #13 on: February 03, 2016, 03:54:44 PM »
SCTA eliminated the return run from coming back towards Wendover after Nolan's crash for safety reasons but the point to be recognized here is that SCTA is not claiming World Records so it's not necessary to run the same rules as FIA.
Both SCTA & USFRA changed to the same new rules to stay aligned with each other.
  Sid.

The safety reasons don't go away when you run for a world record; in fact the higher speeds make them more urgent. If the course is level, with no significant wind, there's no speed advantage for making both runs in the same directjon.

Offline bbarn

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Re: New Governing body for the fastest wheeldriven cars and bikes?
« Reply #14 on: February 03, 2016, 04:21:23 PM »
If you are running as a lone vehicle, running both directions isn't the major issue. Try taking all the cars at Speedweek turning them around to run the other direction. It would be a nightmare logistically.

Having more time between runs to inspect and secure their safety of the vehicle is paramount. Driving a wheel driven car at +500mph is difficult, just ask anyone who has done it.

Giving time to allow a team to go over the car with a fine tooth comb to ensure their safety is reason enough to make the change. If you search the historical record (*cough* Malcom UK could share i am sure *cough*) on speed attempts on water you will find at least one driver that went without refueling on his return run to save time. It was a poor decision based on the outcome.

With all that is going on in trying to make a high speed pass the last thing we should be doing is putting an undue burden on competitors that may cause them to shirk safety in favor of a record attempt.

In the historical times the turnaround may have been to prevent someone from swapping engines as reliability wasn't what it is today. I would see little problem in getting at least 4 hard passes out of a good motor. Needing to swap because of reliability isn't an issue. Rules may need to be in place to dictate motor changes aren't allowed between record passes if that is indeed a concern. Using a one hour rule to prevent it really doesn't justify the need for the one hour time.
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