Author Topic: Mopar Polysherical  (Read 8804 times)

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Offline Polyhead

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Mopar Polysherical
« on: January 14, 2016, 08:38:44 PM »
Just a question quick question.  I'm sure people have run them in the distant past, but is anyone currently running one?  In otherwords, am I going to be the only one foolish enough to bring one onto the salt (or lake bed)?

Many LA parts carry over.  So some general tips from LA engines probably apply.  But then there are some early hemi like qualities as well... so some of those tips probably apply.

Double rollers are a good thing I'm guessing.

Big, Heavy, Ductile cast iron rockers are probably a bad thing.  Unless you've got an art project on the side that requires dozens of bent push rods.

Drill the cam plate for more oil to the chain?  Plug up the cam plate to reduce oil to the chain?

Total advance on the ignition advice?  I keep hearing advance it till it knocks... but then dyno tuning shows that this is a fools game, as I can advance the igntion to about 60degrees, still get no knock, and loose power.  Peak power appears to be at 28 degrees, strangely... I really would have thought 35 or 38 would work better on it's large open chamber heads but.... nope...Or maybe it was detonating but the miles of cast iron between me and the combustion chambers fully muffled it?

Break out those clue sticks and start swinging!
Ben 'Polyhead' Smith
  KE7GAL

Offline salt27

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Re: Mopar Polysherical
« Reply #1 on: January 14, 2016, 10:07:41 PM »
Ben, If you haven't checked out The School of Automotive Machinist (Houston Texas) engine build entry in AMSOIL's Engine Masters Challenge you should.

547 HP and 566 torque out of a Poly head.

  Don

Offline Milwaukee Midget

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Re: Mopar Polysherical
« Reply #2 on: January 14, 2016, 10:19:14 PM »
This is the one - granted, poked and stroked, but a starting point -

http://www.hotrod.com/features/1601-strange-v-8-make-power-with-chryslers-obscure-poly-318-small-block/?_wcsid=0B0B7254F17974E28127318D25B35F60627E83D72411B456

There is an awful lot of valve train mass in this one, and I think you'd mentioned that the previous owner had installed flat tops in it.

Right now, without knowing for sure what kind of power and rev range you're targeting, there seems to be enough A block parts to make a reasonably priced bottom end, but if you want to maximize this one, it's not likely you'll find the parts through Jegs or Summit.
"Problems are almost always a sign of progress."  Harold Bettes
Well, I guess we're making a LOT of progress . . .  :roll:

Offline Polyhead

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Re: Mopar Polysherical
« Reply #3 on: January 15, 2016, 12:05:40 AM »
This is the one - granted, poked and stroked, but a starting point -

http://www.hotrod.com/features/1601-strange-v-8-make-power-with-chryslers-obscure-poly-318-small-block/?_wcsid=0B0B7254F17974E28127318D25B35F60627E83D72411B456

There is an awful lot of valve train mass in this one, and I think you'd mentioned that the previous owner had installed flat tops in it.

Right now, without knowing for sure what kind of power and rev range you're targeting, there seems to be enough A block parts to make a reasonably priced bottom end, but if you want to maximize this one, it's not likely you'll find the parts through Jegs or Summit.

You would be surprised.  Again, many LA engine parts fit and work fine in the engine.  Timing sets, fuel pumps, distributors, valve springs, valves.  Water pumps can be made to work.  360 cranks can have the mains turned down.  Do the math on this, with a 360 crank you get a bore to stroke ration that is but a few thousandths from 90%.

Anyway the intake problem is sorted for now, Ordered up one of the Poly SS-X manifolds.

What I'm unfamiliar with here is how to make one survive at 5500rpm for 5 miles at a time.

Really what I'm going to have to do is build another power plant, and the current block is an issue.  It's the one with the 1" extension cast into the back of the block and a funky crank to go with it.  So, I'm on the hunt for a 63-66 engine, and really, that's not a big task.  Actually I technically own one.  I dumped my '64 polara at my parents house when I moved out here to oregon.  That engine was freshened up about 2 years before I moved... I know it's all in good shape.  It's just getting it to oregon from Indiana.  Anyway this will require a trans swap and a drive shaft.  Also I have leads on several poly cores from the era i'm looking for, and I can get them CHEAP.

There is time for all of this at a later date.  Right now what I have runs good, and doesn't leak fluids.  It's down on power, sure, but so what?  I bet it's good enough to make 100mph at altitude and for first attempts, that's a good place to start if you ask me.  With lower compression it's not going to over heat, it's extremely unlikely to break, and detonation??? yeah, right.  I don't think the car would detonate if I filled the tank with coleman camp fuel right now.  I'm gonna try that!

Anyway, For sure, this is what I'll run in september.  Polyhead with low miles, but also low compression, Edelbrock AVS 500cfm carburator, MAYBE a bumpier than stock cam, maybe not, time, money, etc.  H rated tires, drum brakes in all 4 corners, and my self assembled Heathkit CD igniton system triggered by stinkin' points.  Unless my little brother pulls through for me and robs all the stuff I have on my poor ol '64 I left behind.  I did an electronic ignition swap on that car, 65amp 3wire alternator swap, and a few other goodies.  I kind of want to run the heathkit box for a bit for sentimental reasons.  One of my elmers here in portland, K7KTP-SK gave it to me as payment for going up his tower, was still in kit form.  Sure, I'll have to fight with point bounce, but hey, sometimes you do a thing because it means something to you.  And that's this project all over if I'm honest.  I'm running this car like this because I think it's the life the car deserves. This thing has dents in places cars shouldn't have dents, it's had a rough, rough life.  Good natured car though.

I've said it before, I'll say it again.  I can sit around crying about the parts I wish I had, or take what I do have, and enjoy it.  I grew up on a farm in Indiana.  If I spent my childhood worrying about the things I didn't have there wouldn't have been any life to live.  Instead, I enjoyed the hell out of what I had.  That's what I still do.  People point, people laugh, I don't care.  Some people get worked up about the end goal but that's never been my thing.  My thing has always been in the doing of a thing and not so much about the outcome.  Now sure... this attitude has, litterally on one occasion, ended up upside down and backwards in the lights.  You get use to it.
Ben 'Polyhead' Smith
  KE7GAL

Offline RichFox

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Re: Mopar Polysherical
« Reply #4 on: January 15, 2016, 10:27:42 AM »
You may well never have to worry about it living for 5 miles. 3 maybe.

Offline Speed Limit 1000

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Re: Mopar Polysherical
« Reply #5 on: January 15, 2016, 12:36:24 PM »
"All vehicles, except Streamliners, shall exceed 175 MPH in the first timed quarter mile of the "short" course before competing on the "long" course."
John Gowetski, red hat @ 221.183 MPH MSA Lakester, Bockscar #1000 60 ci normally aspirated w/N20

Offline kiwi belly tank

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Re: Mopar Polysherical
« Reply #6 on: January 15, 2016, 03:41:51 PM »
Which poly engine are you talking about? I'm assuming it's the early style hemi block & not the 318 wide block.
Jeez I bet it was a Pig with 50 deg of timing on gas!
  Sid.

Offline ronnieroadster

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Re: Mopar Polysherical
« Reply #7 on: January 15, 2016, 04:38:18 PM »
I have one of those Polys in my good weather daily driver a 1967 Dodge Coronet 500 it was built in Canada the only year the Poly came with hydrolic lifters. Awesome power a whoping 230 HP and 300 foot pounds of torque.  8-)
Working in the shop I use the 'F' word a lot. No not that word these words Focus and Finish go Fast and Flathead Ford!
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Offline Polyhead

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Re: Mopar Polysherical
« Reply #8 on: January 15, 2016, 04:58:52 PM »
Which poly engine are you talking about? I'm assuming it's the early style hemi block & not the 318 wide block.
Jeez I bet it was a Pig with 50 deg of timing on gas!
  Sid.

Nope, 318.  Common, cheap, and everyone hates them.
Ben 'Polyhead' Smith
  KE7GAL

Offline Polyhead

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Re: Mopar Polysherical
« Reply #9 on: January 15, 2016, 10:22:57 PM »
You may well never have to worry about it living for 5 miles. 3 maybe.

Well there is that... DON'T SAY NEVER!
Ben 'Polyhead' Smith
  KE7GAL

Offline Polyhead

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Re: Mopar Polysherical
« Reply #10 on: January 15, 2016, 10:29:52 PM »
I have one of those Polys in my good weather daily driver a 1967 Dodge Coronet 500 it was built in Canada the only year the Poly came with hydrolic lifters. Awesome power a whoping 230 HP and 300 foot pounds of torque.  8-)

I had one in my '64 dodge polara, and that was my first encounter with a polyhead.  Enjoy a blury old photo!


Now I have this thing with a polyhead
 

Also.. I thought it was 340lb/ft (looks it up) yep, 340lb/ft. 
Ben 'Polyhead' Smith
  KE7GAL

Offline kiwi belly tank

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Re: Mopar Polysherical
« Reply #11 on: January 16, 2016, 02:14:59 AM »
Which poly engine are you talking about? I'm assuming it's the early style hemi block & not the 318 wide block.
Jeez I bet it was a Pig with 50 deg of timing on gas!
  Sid.

Nope, 318.  Common, cheap, and everyone hates them.
Not everybody hates them! :-) They're not the best choice for revving but they are a reliable old dog. Lose the stock pushrods if you haven't already bent them, because you will.
Build a windage tray in the pan to keep the oil down or the crank will shove it all up through the monster holes in the valley. Don't be scared to give it "an oil pump" & you will need to restrict oil to the rocker shafts. I always used to put a plug in the bottom of the feed rocker stand, that was the easy way. If you pull the rockers off the shaft, put them all back in the same place.
I budget built a bunch of those old 318 widies in NZ back in the day & shoved them in all sorts of things, they were cheap & I was a poor Mopar kid.
  Sid.
   

Offline RichFox

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Re: Mopar Polysherical
« Reply #12 on: January 16, 2016, 09:58:46 AM »
You may well never have to worry about it living for 5 miles. 3 maybe.

Well there is that... DON'T SAY NEVER!
I like polys. I have a 259 Plymouth poly in my shop. But it will take some really serious power to push that thing to 175 in the quarter. Not sure that with your current plans that is going to happen.

Offline Polyhead

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Re: Mopar Polysherical
« Reply #13 on: January 16, 2016, 10:17:53 AM »
Which poly engine are you talking about? I'm assuming it's the early style hemi block & not the 318 wide block.
Jeez I bet it was a Pig with 50 deg of timing on gas!
  Sid.

Nope, 318.  Common, cheap, and everyone hates them.
Not everybody hates them! :-) They're not the best choice for revving but they are a reliable old dog. Lose the stock pushrods if you haven't already bent them, because you will.
Build a windage tray in the pan to keep the oil down or the crank will shove it all up through the monster holes in the valley. Don't be scared to give it "an oil pump" & you will need to restrict oil to the rocker shafts. I always used to put a plug in the bottom of the feed rocker stand, that was the easy way. If you pull the rockers off the shaft, put them all back in the same place.
I budget built a bunch of those old 318 widies in NZ back in the day & shoved them in all sorts of things, they were cheap & I was a poor Mopar kid.
  Sid.
   

Pushrods are already bent.... LOL  Hell I did that screwing around in the field doing donuts.  The really funny thing was that it was still running on all 8 cylinders with 4 pushrods bent.  The pushrod gets leaned up against the hole i feeds through and is then supported just enough by the pushrod hole it keeps running.

On the rockers, Do you know of a rocker tip that can be made to fit in the polyhead's rockers that is a locking type and not a self locking type?  I'll happily drill out the threads and install a threadcert or re-tap.  I don't trust the self locking adjusters at  high engine speeds.  I'm a machinist for a living.  Making holes, tapping holes, screaming, swearing.  That's everyday crap for me.
Ben 'Polyhead' Smith
  KE7GAL

Offline Polyhead

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Re: Mopar Polysherical
« Reply #14 on: January 16, 2016, 10:19:48 AM »
You may well never have to worry about it living for 5 miles. 3 maybe.

Well there is that... DON'T SAY NEVER!
I like polys. I have a 259 Plymouth poly in my shop. But it will take some really serious power to push that thing to 175 in the quarter. Not sure that with your current plans that is going to happen.

This is an incremental approach.  If you think the combination is going to be the same 10 or 15 years down the road, think again.  C/BFALT
Ben 'Polyhead' Smith
  KE7GAL