Author Topic: Classing help for '04 Subaru Wagon  (Read 9128 times)

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QuikWgn

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Classing help for '04 Subaru Wagon
« on: September 12, 2006, 11:05:29 PM »
I'm in the planning/early construction phase(ie fighting with the other half about about spending $50k of MY money on something that goes *hopefully* in excess of the class record) of a 2004 Subaru WRX wagon.  

Issues with classification include:

1)Aftermarket suspension parts and relocation of some OEM suspension attachment points.

2)Body panels available on a JDM(Japanese Domestic Market) version of the same vehicle Make, Model, and Year, but never produced on a car sold as *new* in the USA. Also additional non-stock aerodynamic/ground effects pieces (ie canards, vortex generators, rear diffusers) may be employed.

3)Motor swap.  Car will be powered by a 2.2L EJ22 4cyl horizontally opposed (ie Boxer) engine not available in this Model or Year(in the installed configuration it will be a "stroker" motor with a displacement of 2.4L)  It was once available in the 1998 Subaru Impeza 22B 2dr coupe as a JDM/EDM only vehicle. A total of 426 were made.  3 cars are designated 000 and are owned by Colin McRae, Nicky Grist and David Lapworth, there is no number 13 and 24 cars were made for issue outside Japan.  Of this 24, 16 went to the UK and were badged 22B Type UK and the other 8 went to the owners of Subaru concessions throughout the world.  It is rumoured that a few of this final 8 went to private collectors, such as The Sultan of Brunei.

4)Aftermaket Turbo.  The car will have something in the range of a Garrett GT42R, Borg-Warner S400, Turbonetics GTK1000, or other suitably huge snail.

5)Methanol Fueled.  Car will be powered by an M100 equivalent methanol fuel.

6)Water to Air intercooler and possibly with a N20 spraybar mounted to the exterior of the intercooler.

7)Interior stripped and replaced with as little as possible in the way of replacement panels (ie Carbon Fiber/Titanium/Aluminum/Fiberglass). panels etc.

8)Aftermarket transmission and differentials.  Dog Box type transmission and true LSD's in all 3 differntials as the car will retain the OEM AWD configuration.

9)Vehicle is a 4 door Station Wagon with top mounted rear opening hatch.

I was thinking the car would be a f/BFMP, but as of yet, due to 2 closely spaced moves and issues with mail forwarding, I have not yet received my rulebook.

Am I correct in assuming class designation.  If not what will it be classed as and what is the current class record?  TIA for all the assistance!

Offline jimmy six

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Classing help for '04 Subaru Wagon
« Reply #1 on: September 13, 2006, 10:17:36 AM »
Cannot speak for much of it with exception of your guess of class ending in "MP". If you are thinking modified pickup that for sure is wrong. It's a car not a pickup. We have do not have a Modified Production if that is what you are thinking(SCTA-BNI)

With use of fuel and a turbocharger your lowest class would be blown fuel altered. There are some limits on what can be done to the body especially behind the windshield line. After you have recieved a rule book, which I understand are gone, you will need to read all there is on that modified class. Since it is a "little" different than what is available to the public everything will need to be documented by pictures and factory information.

You speak of numbers. The minimum number of said vehicles must exceed 500. Engines are not in that number. The rule book will give you a contact for coupes and sedans.  It may take time to approve of what you want to do. Good Luck
First GMC 6 powered Fuel roadster over 200, with 2 red hats. Pit crew for Patrick Tone's Super Stock #49 Camaro

Offline Sumner

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Classing help for '04 Subaru Wagon
« Reply #2 on: September 13, 2006, 01:18:51 PM »
The class record for Blown Fuel Altered Coupe - F/BFALT is:

.................. John Rains  10/03 251.043

An impressive speed to say the least.

good luck,

Sum

QuikWgn

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Classing help for '04 Subaru Wagon
« Reply #3 on: September 13, 2006, 03:14:27 PM »
Quote from: jimmy six
Cannot speak for much of it with exception of your guess of class ending in "MP". If you are thinking modified pickup that for sure is wrong. It's a car not a pickup. We have do not have a Modified Production if that is what you are thinking(SCTA-BNI)

Since it is a "little" different than what is available to the public everything will need to be documented by pictures and factory information.

The rule book will give you a contact for coupes and sedans.  It may take time to approve of what you want to do. Good Luck


You are right to assume I meant Modified Production(I think I got that from the Australian Dry Lakes site), but being a station wagon type configuration makes it neither a coupe nor sedan really which has got me confused.

Body modifications would be nowhere as severe as this

and I assume it's classification was I/Fuel Competition Coupe?
Nor as severe as the Blowfish record holder in F/BFCC


Stock the wagon looks like this(less the questionable pink wheels!)
.
The body modifications would look similar to this.


I know there is a /BGC class but is there a /BFC?  It makes sense but I didn't see it.

The Subaru's WRX's are some of the quickest "non-supercar" vehicles ever produced on 4 wheels  w/0-60 times in the sub 5 second range and 1/4 mile times in the 13's stock and WRX STI's are close to 4 seconds flat 0-60 and 12 second cars in the 1/4 mile. It competes in competitions such as SOLO and road racing against cars mentioned in the Modified Sports class "blurb" of RX-7's and 350Z's. Would this entail a /BFMS classification? I do understand there is no current record in F/BFMS also.

QuikWgn

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Classing help for '04 Subaru Wagon
« Reply #4 on: September 13, 2006, 03:38:03 PM »
Quote from: Sumner
The class record for Blown Fuel Altered Coupe - F/BFALT is:

.................. John Rains  10/03 251.043

An impressive speed to say the least.

good luck,

Sum


The car's stock Cd is .33 and the Cd x A is approximately 7.8.  I've checked the math and looking at this graph

(thanks go out to L.E. Mayfield the engineer who produced the graphs)where the bottom colored box represents a Cd x A of 4 and each increasing colored box an increase of 2 in the Cd x A value plotted vs MPH and required HP to acheive that speed shows 750-800HP to hit 250mph.

Preliminary HP figures after consulting the engine builer, intake builder, cam designer, and several turbo mfg's, estimated HP @ approximately 40psi is in excess of 1250hp.  Correcting for some greivous error lets assume it makes 1000hp -20% for parasitic loss(as the chart assumes wheel horsepower) for a total of 800WHP which should still put me in the range for a possible class record. Though by switching to a 3 disk carbon clutch, the straight cut gearbox, and real (ie non-viscous) LSD's it should not be more than about 12% parasitic loss as far as I can determine.

LittleLiner

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Classing help for '04 Subaru Wagon
« Reply #5 on: September 13, 2006, 05:32:21 PM »
Well you have a couple of issues with your choice of vehicle.   First and foremost is the all wheel drive configuration.  AWD is NOT allowed in any coupe or sedan class be it Gas Coupe (GC), Fuel or Gas Altered (FALT or GALT) or even Competition Coupe (GCC or FCC) or any of their blown designations.  The only all wheel drive coupes (or sedans or wagons) are in the Production category.  

Take a close look at the rules on the Production category.  I am not an expert and certainly not an official but (that said) I think that all the variants of the Subaru DOHC boxer 4 motor are probably legal in the production category for your WRX.  It is probably paramount to using a different year and size small block chevy in a "production' chevrolet.  (i.e. using a 283 V8 in a 55 chevy that only came with the 265 V8.)

Another thing to consider is that the engine size you have selected is alot smaller than the 3 litre maximum for that class.  

Good luck with whatever you build and whatever class you end up in.

QuikWgn

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Classing help for '04 Subaru Wagon
« Reply #6 on: September 13, 2006, 05:58:21 PM »
So even though the vehicle is AWD from the factory it is not allowed in any class but production?  That would be a small setback since these cars have been converted to RWD for drifting and drag racing but I really wanted to keep the vehicle AWD(additional plans for the vehicle also include an attempt to be the quickest full bodied AWD Subaru vehicle in the 1/4 mile in North America with an appropriate change in gearing of course).

As far as the motor goes, and keeping it Subaru powered, there is a 3.0L H6 Boxer motor like in the Tribeca SUV, and a COUPLE have been SUCESSFULLY transplanted into a WRX, but it is a tight fit and power levels to my knowledge have not exceeded much over 600HP.  Otherwise there is a 3.3L that was in the Subaru SVX in the 90's, but again power and size limitations apply.

The 2.4L the motor I have chosen is a 2.2L EJ22 Turbo Legacy fully closed deck block(much more suitable to o-ringing than any other Subaru motor ever produced) from the 1990's fitted with aftermarket billet internals intended for the 2.5L EJ25 semi closed deck motor that is currently produced.  Crawford Performance makes a stroker short block similar to the EJ25 that increases the displacement to 2.8L, but no-one has run that version(to my knowledge) 1) In the 40psi range 2) On 100% methanol and 3) In excess of 800-900HP.  It would also add substantially to the cost of the engine as they are primarily the only company that makes parts for that proprietary engine configuration.

Offline Sumner

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Classing help for '04 Subaru Wagon
« Reply #7 on: September 13, 2006, 06:59:37 PM »
Quote from: QuikWgn
................. but no-one has run that version(to my knowledge) 1) In the 40psi range 2) On 100% methanol and 3) In excess of 800-900HP.  It would also add substantially to the cost of the engine as they are primarily the only company that makes parts for that proprietary engine configuration.


Don't forget you aren't running this thing down the quarter mile, but for a full 5 miles.  There are a lot of high HP drag motors out there that do fine for 10 sec. or so, but would never live at b'ville.

Also it isn't just aero and HP.  You also need traction and to get that you need weight and also the weight has to be in the right place or you might have traction but find yourself spinning by Glen's timing tower like what happened to us this last year.

Lots of things look doable on paper but never come to be on the salt.

Not to discourage you, but if you haven't been you need to go and see what it takes to run the numbers you are talking about.

Good luck,

Sum

QuikWgn

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Classing help for '04 Subaru Wagon
« Reply #8 on: September 13, 2006, 07:27:15 PM »
True I've never run that on the salt...I've never been on the salt...period.  But I've been close to those speeds. I've been 190+ in the 1/4 in a dragster, been close to 185 for multiple miles in Montana, and probably 500 passes on the strip at 165ish in my regular drag car.  I'm 36 now and have been racing on four wheels for 20+ years of that and on 2 or 3(BMX/ATV/MX) for another 10. So I'm not new to the cost both physically and financially that racing and building race vehicles can put on you.

I chose Methanol, as the high boost I need is EASILY acheivable and liveable on alcohol(think indy 500 1000+hp for 500miles on boost in excess of 50+psi on 1.0L motors) run my drag car on it @ nearly 1000HP on a motor I built myself which has lasted seasons without a mechanical failure. I can mig/tig/plasma/bend as I have done most of my own chassis work on my drag cars which passed NHRA tech/sonic check etc and SFI spec'd to their rules, so I'm pretty familiar with that type of process.

I know quite abit about suspension design/tuning and hooking up that kind of power,(albeit on sticky pavement) and how aerodynamic lift, drag, and corner weighting your vehicle can affect its handling.  A few years ago I spent quite some time talking to Al Teague who helped me out quite abit with parts selection etc when I was buying a lot of parts from Speedomotive building some drag motors I was unfamiliar with, and hope that if I burn up the phone lines and/or email I MIGHT be able to pick his brain a little bit.

Some sponsors have already shown interest so I may not have to foot the bill for the $50K+ I expect this to cost.  I'm thinking of talking a shot at El Mirage first bofore tackling Bonneville, and the car should be fully shook down prior to that as the drag record needs to happen first, and then appropriate gearing/aero/weighting issues dealt with prior to El Mirage.

Offline Stan Back

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Classing help for '04 Subaru Wagon
« Reply #9 on: September 14, 2006, 01:45:51 PM »
Sounds like a done deal!
Past (Only) Member of the San Berdoo Roadsters -- "California's Most-Exclusive Roadster Club" -- 19 Years of Bonneville and/or El Mirage Street Roadster Records

Offline Freud

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Picking a Class
« Reply #10 on: September 14, 2006, 04:30:43 PM »
I'd suggest that you avoid John Rains.

Here is the first line of Jon's post from WOS today:

Sept 13 Results -
Sept 14, 2006 - 8:55 AM

WOW very impressive return run this morning for John Rains. Running his Pontiac Trans Am in D/PS class ran 295.404 yesterday on his own 292.902 record ran in the last mile 299.923 mph with a 303.244 exit speed. Great fast run John.

It may require an extra zero on that cost estimate if these dudes run any faster.


FREUD
Since '63

QuikWgn

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Classing help for '04 Subaru Wagon
« Reply #11 on: September 14, 2006, 04:45:03 PM »
Yeah but that D class motor has a lot more displacement than my F classed engine...if the HP figures I was quoted hold to be true @ approximately 1250hp@ the wheels check the blue line on the graph equating to a 285mph speed with my Cd x A and WHP figures.

LittleLiner

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Classing help for '04 Subaru Wagon
« Reply #12 on: September 14, 2006, 04:56:16 PM »
Do you have an SCTA Rule book?

If not, I suggest you get one and read it, then read it again, and again etc.  Many of the classification issues will become aparent.  Then get those issues and questions to the SCTA rep for whatever category you want to run in.

Again, as I said earlier, the AWD is going to be a problem and the only way I see you getting around that is to try to keep the car in the production category.  In the case of the WRX it would be in F/PS. (Production Supercharged).  In LSR any blower, be it a supercharger or turbo, runs in the appropriate Supercharged or Blown Class (some minor exceptions for some truck classes and for diesel streamliners)

Anyway . . .

As you will see in the rules - the Production category is not like a "Stock" class drag car for NHRA.  With the SCTA you can do alot of modifications and still be in the Production classes.

Things that will keep you out of PS would include an engine swap.  So the 3.0 six cylinder is not an option.  However if you read the SCTA definition of what is and is not an engine 'swap'  I think you  have alot of latitude on selecting from several Subie boxer 4s.

Another no-go for production is the use of anything except 'event gas'  So no Nitrous or Alky.

I don't know how much latitude you have on using a "non-stock" turbo.  For that ruling you probably need to check with SCTA.  

Also you need to be careful what body modifications you make.  Just because you can buy something over the counter from Subaru doesn't necessarily mean it is acceptable for production category classification.  You will need to show some documentation that confirms that your model actually was available from the factory with any flares, wings, air-dams etc. that you run.


Ofcourse if your goal is to have the fasted recorded speed at a scantioned event in an awd Subaru, then forget about classification.  Install all the appropriate safety equipment and enter it as a "Time Only" car.

Offline Sumner

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Classing help for '04 Subaru Wagon
« Reply #13 on: September 14, 2006, 08:38:31 PM »
Quote from: QuikWgn
True I've never run that on the salt...I've never been on the salt...period.  But I've been close to those speeds. I've been 190+ in the 1/4 in a dragster, been close to 185 for multiple miles in Montana, and probably 500 passes on the strip at 165ish in my regular drag car.  I'm 36 now and have been racing on four wheels for 20+ years of that and on 2 or 3(BMX/ATV/MX) for another 10. So I'm not new to the cost both physically and financially that racing and building race vehicles can put on you.

I chose Methanol, as the high boost I need is EASILY acheivable and liveable on alcohol(think indy 500 1000+hp for 500miles on boost in excess of 50+psi on 1.0L motors) run my drag car on it @ nearly 1000HP on a motor I built myself which has lasted seasons without a mechanical failure. I can mig/tig/plasma/bend as I have done most of my own chassis work on my drag cars which passed NHRA tech/sonic check etc and SFI spec'd to their rules, so I'm pretty familiar with that type of process.

I know quite abit about suspension design/tuning and hooking up that kind of power,(albeit on sticky pavement) and how aerodynamic lift, drag, and corner weighting your vehicle can affect its handling.  A few years ago I spent quite some time talking to Al Teague who helped me out quite abit with parts selection etc when I was buying a lot of parts from Speedomotive building some drag motors I was unfamiliar with, and hope that if I burn up the phone lines and/or email I MIGHT be able to pick his brain a little bit.

Some sponsors have already shown interest so I may not have to foot the bill for the $50K+ I expect this to cost.  I'm thinking of talking a shot at El Mirage first bofore tackling Bonneville, and the car should be fully shook down prior to that as the drag record needs to happen first, and then appropriate gearing/aero/weighting issues dealt with prior to El Mirage.


I know I'll probably regret posting this, but here goes.  No one myself included are trying to put you down or start a pi**ing contest.  I'll offer some observations/comments that are free and you can take them for what they are worth (remember they were free) or simply ignore them.

I have no doubt you have gone fast, but that won't make your car fast.

Your build skills will help you and so will being familiar with working on motors, but not much else above will apply to b'ville.

Your mention of 1000+ hp indy motors just won't get it on the salt where you don't have the traction of asphalt and mile wide tires.  You will be running on tires that are about 5 inches wide and will have 70-90 lbs. of air in them and the salt on a good day has the coefficient of traction of about .4 that of asphalt.  Ask Johnr about running a high hp full power/no power small motor.  He has done it successfully, but to get one of these to hook is a chore.  Forget HP at b'ville.  One of the better things I ever heard came from Jack Costella during an interview.  He said "you need a truck motor, something that can pull a long hill as running on the salt is a long hill to climb" or something to that effect.  You need a torque motor.  You are in the gears for so long there.  Plot your speeds with a rear gear that you will need to go 260 and see how long you are pulling the high gears.

The chart you posted on the other post is a guide not something written in stone.  How do you know the exact Cd and area of your car after you have made the purposed changes?  Is that HP at the crank, rear wheel??  Is the HP at the exact RPM you need it to be there.  An example we have the dyno numbers on our car and this year ran an exit speed of 241 at 7070 rpm and the rpm was about flat there and we only picked up about 3 mph in the whole last mile, so we are at the limit of this configuration.  But the Dyno says we should be making max HP at 7400 rpm, so why can't we pull that?  The reason is that the difference in HP between 7000 rpm and 7400 is only 10-20 hp and the HP needed to run 253 (7400 rpm) is 100 HP more than that needed to run the 241 that we ran.  So even though the motor makes more HP at 7400 it isn't enough to run the 253.  See how critical the gearing can be.  Gearing (all gears) is just as important, in my mind, as HP and aero to get the job done if you are going for the last mph for your combination.  We are now looking for a 5 speed where we can change evey gear in it (except the 1 to 1 5th) to maximise our effort.  We need to as we are not running a good body for our class.

You need to put a combination together the best you can with the data you have, but until you run it you won't know which way you need to go and you might just find out you can't get there with what you have.

You are talking about the HP to go certain speeds.  Have you figured the weight needed in the car and where you will put it to get the traction needed to get that HP to the ground to reach the  speed?  At about 230 we were out of traction with our 3000 lb. car.  We had to add over 800 lbs. to go faster than that and run the 241.  But now that has hurt the acceleration of the car so we need more HP to accelerate faster and more HP to go faster and we will probably have to add more weight to run over 250.  There is a lot going on that is very hard to just figure on paper.  If you try and add traction with a spoiler now you have hurt the aero of the car and will need more HP to fix that.  Also you can't just dump the weight over the rear as then the car won't go down the course without spinning.  You probably have read about "center of pressure" and "center of gravity" and how they can work to make the car go straight.

Like littleliner said if you want to make your car the fastest Subaru then do everything you can and don't worry about a class.  If you want to race for a record chances are you need to pick a body and motor (most likely not from the same manufacture) and go for it because the guy who has the present record probably did that.  

I could go on and on, but by now you are probably tired of it, so I'll just say stick around, learn from some of the guys on here who have set records and good luck,

Sum

Offline Bob Drury

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Classing help for '04 Subaru Wagon
« Reply #14 on: September 14, 2006, 08:57:43 PM »
When I built my car nine years ago, and coming from a drag racing background, several folks told me that the first thing I needed to do was forget everything I knew about drag race engines.  Knowing more than they did, I proceeded to ventelate pistons for two years until Marlo convinced me to fatten the jet by .030.  The car sounded great and ran up through the gears like a banshee, just like a drag race motor should, but then it would get these inspection ports in the pistons.  Handy for checking for debris in the pan though.............p.s.  Marlo's jet got me an instant 34 mph with no holes! :D
Bob Drury