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Author Topic: Rebuttal to Bonneville Salt Loss  (Read 32037 times)

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Offline tauruck

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Re: Rebuttal to Bonneville Salt Loss
« Reply #15 on: October 13, 2015, 11:25:00 PM »
I knew that was coming.

 :wink:

Offline jh333

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Re: Rebuttal to Bonneville Salt Loss
« Reply #16 on: October 14, 2015, 12:05:27 AM »
Kiwi, that exactly the point. Take your butt out to where they say the salt is 3 feet thick drill a dam test hole and if there is not the salt they say then you can bitch like hell and I will bitch right along with you, but until you do the test yourself nothing you say will mean anything !

Offline Bob Drury

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Re: Rebuttal to Bonneville Salt Loss
« Reply #17 on: October 14, 2015, 12:55:13 AM »
  Lets look at this from a different perspective.  The question comes to mind:  Is a professional geologist trained or educated in mathematical theory, physics, meteorology, or fluid dynamics to the point that their "theories" about salt loss due to (insert whatever you want here) can be proven (such as salt loss due to unverified tonnage removal by private industry) or can be accepted as fact by outsiders?
  Unless other professionals care to put their reputations on the line by challenging each others "findings", The public can easily be duped.
  This has happened in the very recent past in everything from medical research to "Black Holes" to religion to politics. Mistakes are made. Numbers are misunderstood. People lie, Professors lie, Priests lie, Politicians lie, Plumbers lie.  Why?  To make the rest of the World accept their falsehood's or to make their "higher-ups" or corporate stockholders happy.
  I am not calling anyone a liar here, I am only questioning the status quo of how these "findings" came about, what methods were used to corroborate these findings with outside research data by independent sources and sciences.
  When a government entity charged with the protection of public lands relies solely on "in house" findings, and being that said entity is under tremendous political and therefor financial pressure, I tend to wince when I read any "sanctioned" report.
  As the old Hippy Bumper Sticker read:  QUESTION AUTHORITY.
                                                                                             Bob Drury
« Last Edit: October 14, 2015, 12:59:10 AM by Bob Drury »
Bob Drury

Offline SPARKY

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Re: Rebuttal to Bonneville Salt Loss
« Reply #18 on: October 14, 2015, 06:24:41 AM »
777 are you living on ocean front property there in Yuma?

Who is or was your employer?
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Offline Buickguy3

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Re: Rebuttal to Bonneville Salt Loss
« Reply #19 on: October 14, 2015, 09:13:28 AM »
   Just wondering where all of these core drilling samples from the Salt are being kept.
       https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Core_sample
    Doug  :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
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Offline kiwi belly tank

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Re: Rebuttal to Bonneville Salt Loss
« Reply #20 on: October 14, 2015, 09:19:53 AM »
Kiwi, that exactly the point. Take your butt out to where they say the salt is 3 feet thick drill a dam test hole and if there is not the salt they say then you can bitch like hell and I will bitch right along with you, but until you do the test yourself nothing you say will mean anything !
The head of the BLM couldn't tell me where this so called "magical" location was & I drilled a number of test holes adjacent to the course as they stated they had & you can see what I found. STS was even under the impression one of my test sites was a BLM site.
 It's a naturally formed lake bed that is consistent in depth with no more than a 1" variation over 7 miles of distance that I tested & that is on top of a brine mud/water table & you still believe there is three feet of this stuff!
Like Sparky said, you have your head buried in ocean front property in Arizona & you are entitled to your opinion from that location.
I'm calling a big fat BULL$HIT on the BLM claim to there being "2 to 3 feet" of salt in solid form anywhere near a course.
  Sid.
  

Offline kiwi belly tank

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Re: Rebuttal to Bonneville Salt Loss
« Reply #21 on: October 14, 2015, 09:37:25 AM »
   Just wondering where all of these core drilling samples from the Salt are being kept.
       https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Core_sample
    Doug  :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
Doug, the only place I could actually pull a sample up from was in the drain field between lands end & the dike. It had a consistency of clam chowder & 3ft compressed to about 18" when it came out. All other locations were too sloppy/thin to stay in the pipe when I pulled it up.
In this vid you can see what I'm talking about.
  Sid.
 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kb3-AzddsTY

Offline Milwaukee Midget

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Re: Rebuttal to Bonneville Salt Loss
« Reply #22 on: October 14, 2015, 09:46:14 AM »
Part of the problem is that the flats remain so vast and changing that verification would be difficult without GPS and altitude verification.

But if the findings of both Sid and Richard White show this kind of disparity, the methods and accuracy need to be checked.

We've seen Sid's work on the test - but all we've seen from Mr. White is his written conclusions, apparently based on the same materials made public by Save-The-Salt (dashes included).  Mr. White's conclusions - notably that salt is under a gypsum layer - stand in contrast to Sid's evidence gathering.

I'm seeing a lack of controls in testing methods that needs to be addressed quickly, because if the tests are not repeatable, any conclusions will not be supported by science, and everyone will simply be chasing their tails.

Here's a question - Both salt and clays are evaporative deposits, but clay appears denser than salt, so in solution, salt should rise and clay, relative to salt, should fall out of solution, rather than percolate, as salt does.

So under what circumstances could salt be stratified below a strata of clay when both are in solution 6 months out of the year?

Sid was clearly unable to find salt under clay.


 
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Offline Buickguy3

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Re: Rebuttal to Bonneville Salt Loss
« Reply #23 on: October 14, 2015, 09:51:47 AM »
  Sid, That's exactly what I meant. If they got 2-3 foot test samples in their core drills, then they would look like the core samples in the Wikipedia example. Also over the last 50 or so years of verification surely somebody has documented all of their testing and not just taken their word for it wouldn't you think?
   Doug  :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
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Offline BasementBorn

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Re: Rebuttal to Bonneville Salt Loss
« Reply #24 on: October 14, 2015, 10:45:18 AM »
I feel like none of you have actually read the past reports. The definition of salt thickness is different between what we are talking about here and what is in the reports. The reports (one was written by William White so I am sure he knows how the samples were taken) show the total thickness to be 2-3ft however, it consists of at least 5 layers. 1 layer of halite that we race on. 1 layer of gypsum. 1 layer of hard cemented salt. Another layer of gypsum. Then 2-3ft of mush salt/mud mix down to the hard pan. Everything from Russ's measurements (of the top layer), Sid's measurements (also of the top layer), what the reports were for the cancelation all coincide with the reports and what William is saying. We are just using a different definition of salt thickness than they are which is where the problem is. No where in any of the reports does it say there was ever 2-3ft of completely solid salt.

One problem I see is the lease agreement says a third party (Brenda Bowen) will repeat the 2003 report which uses the same old definition and will likely come back with the same conclusion as the past reports that there is no problem.

Sample locations can be found in the reports and in Russ's spreadsheet. They all have coordinates shown. It is not a mystery.
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Offline Bob Drury

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Re: Rebuttal to Bonneville Salt Loss
« Reply #25 on: October 14, 2015, 12:05:13 PM »
  So, as I asked in Reply number two, Where has 2 to three feet of salt gone in the last fifty years?  The paved road to Lands End has not been raised three feet in that time according to previous statements by many who have raced on the Salt since the sixties.  Why do we have (or had) less than seven miles of usable Salt and the inability to run Thrust powered vehicles such as those of Arfons, Breedlove, Noble and others?  Who stole it?
  You and I can read all the reports and findings by the BLM ad nauseam  but no where do I find a sensible answer to that simple question that has been asked thousands of times by Racers and Visitors alike.
Bob Drury

Offline tauruck

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Re: Rebuttal to Bonneville Salt Loss
« Reply #26 on: October 14, 2015, 12:31:34 PM »
You want reliable info?. Go with Sid's findings.
The guy is 100% genuine, a racer and the only one that took the time to do an investigation.

All the other scientific stuff does not relate to RACING.

Thanks Sid. I have no claim on the condition of the racing surface but if you say things are not cool I believe you. :cheers:

Offline kiwi belly tank

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Re: Rebuttal to Bonneville Salt Loss
« Reply #27 on: October 14, 2015, 12:52:15 PM »
I'll contact Russ to see if I can get the locations & I will go back & test again & this time I will go down to 6ft.
My seven mile (as I called it) was a STS location.
Does anybody know if the salt is still under water right now?
  Sid.

Offline BasementBorn

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Re: Rebuttal to Bonneville Salt Loss
« Reply #28 on: October 14, 2015, 01:04:13 PM »
Sid, just so you know, I am not trying to discount anything you are saying. I am just trying to give some insight on why William is saying there is 2-3 feet of salt out there. Personally, I think there are fatal flaws in the way they measured it but they discounted the 1970 studies which use the definition of hard salt instead of the definition they are using now. It gives a very deceiving result which we need to fix in the next study. Unfortunately per their agreement they only have to compare to the 2003 study which uses the unfavorable definition.

The coordinates for Russ's locations can be found here http://www.savethesalt.org/resources.html  look under the documents heading, it is the salt crust measurements link.

Here is the appendix showing the locations of the BLM's locations http://www.blm.gov/style/medialib/blm/ut/salt_lake_fo/bonneville_salt_flats/salt_laydown_project.Par.42614.File.dat/UGA2006_White&Terrazas%20Appendices.pdf

Here is the report that describes the methods they used to make the measurements http://www.blm.gov/style/medialib/blm/ut/salt_lake_fo/bonneville_salt_flats/salt_laydown_project.Par.87663.File.dat/UGA2006_White&Terrazas.pdf
« Last Edit: October 14, 2015, 01:09:35 PM by BasementBorn »
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Offline QikNip

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Re: Rebuttal to Bonneville Salt Loss
« Reply #29 on: October 14, 2015, 01:25:33 PM »
I was sure Hillary's emails would shed some honest light on this topic  :-D :dhorse:
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