Cook's FIM/AMS Speed Trials Info

[sabat]

How many AMA records are faster than the eqivalent SCTA records? How many riders has this affected? Dean

[Sumner]

Sorry, I just do not understand the exclusion of the AMA records at all.  FIM is as different from SCTA and AMA as you can get, but the 2-club will go out of their way to fit the FIM square peg into the SCTA round hole. Yet the 2 club won't accept AMA records which are almost identical to SCTA. AMA is a national organization, while SCTA is is regional. The explanations so far do not make sense except that the exclusion is a deliberate slap at AMA.

Don

The difference to me and this might be wrong is that Dan and the motorcycle reps don't go to the AMA meet and certify records there.  If the 2 club took AMA records that might or might not fit SCTA classes then there wouldn't be the consistency that there is now using SCTA classes.

Dan and the reps are at the FIM meet and can see if a bike fits into an existing SCTA class.  Not sure if he has been invited to do the same at an AMA meet or if he would want to do so?

There are other 2 clubs at different venues does the AMA have one?

Sumner

[wobblywalrus]

The bike trials has a 201 club.

[Stainless1]

Dan, don't read around what DW posted....  and no need to start what ifs and then what ifs until someone sets a record and someone makes a decision.... The 2 Club has history with the FIA/FIM and the AMA... Some of the records were set and some of the 2 Club members were made under the AMA sanction, before the AMA abandoned LSR.
DW will cross those bridges when he gets to them. 
I would suspect that if the BMST wanted to pay the 2 Club to show up and certify that an AMA record is faster than the corresponding 2 Club record and meets the same criteria then I would guess they would.  But I would not expect them to acknowledge an AMA record that was slower than their current record or set under different criteria.  You may remember the first several Bub events and Jon Amo posting pictures of record setters that were in violation of the AMA rules, but were certified for AMA records anyway.... 
The FIM and FIA guys don't show up on their own dime... and they use their own criteria for records....
And yes, we were affected by the minimums imposed by the 2 Club for motorcycles... it took an extra couple of years,  but we got there...
Rant over....
See you at the mile

[rouse]

I think that Dan and the 2 club folks are doing a fine in policing the introduction of 2 club membership.

I may not agree with some of the minimums established for some of the classes, but that is what it is, and you either make it or you don't.

The AMA has been known to play fast and loss with their own rules, or at-least doing a poor job of policing their established class rules. The way I see it, that's the kind of thing that strips the credibility of an organization.

I applaud the 2 club for the way it has steadfastly maintained it's credibility and reputation over the long haul in strictly enforcing membership requirements. Otherwise what's the point, and what's the challenge to becoming a member? They are proving to be, not only good guardians for the 2 club's reputation and credibility, but more importantly, the achievements of past LSR competitors that are no longer with us.

I have friends that are no longer with us that were 2 clubs members from the early 60's, they deserve the protection of the credibility of the club.

Rouse

 

[dw230]

To clear the air a bit, there is no meet where the Club is paid to verify records. As noted in the rule book the Club does recognize records set at official FIA, BNI, SCTA and USFRA meets.

To help with the idea of exclusion of AMA from this list. It is mentioned above at the AMA has had the reputation of not following their own rules and having faulty certifications.

I spoke with Delvene at the salt in 2013 about including the AMA. I then approached the 2 Club board with the idea and we decided that a 3-5 year program of observation would help us with the decision. I had at least 2 Club motorcycle committee members at the BMST event in 2014 and they reported back that there was no improvement on the AMA side. In fact one of them hide an easter egg tech problem on his bike and it was not found.

A few more events may show the AMA reps that the Club takes it's membership very seriously.

Dan
Warner
President
Bonneville 200 MPH Club

[WhizzbangK.C.]

So you're saying that if one were to hide an "easter egg tech problem" at an SCTA event and it got past them then it would completely invalidate the entire SCTA program as well? I find it hard to believe that SCTA is that perfect.  

[thenav]

It's this type of arbitrary and capricious activity that makes it difficult to believe that the 200 Club is still interested in recognizing land speed racing achievement.

In most accreditation situations, the groups discuss the criteria, a testing/audit plan, and the overall accreditation process. That's what separates an accredited organization from a fly-by-night operation.  The way the 200 club has approached AMA records, and the events that hold them, has been ridiculous. The 200 Club is a club. It's not a sanctioning body.

An unannounced 3-5 year testing program with secret shopper audits. No criteria, reporting, or discussion. As well as a belief that their uncertified secret shoppers are better tech inspectors and are better prepared than the AMA/FIM (yes, most of the BMST core are FIM and AMA certified) to assess the capabilities of the tech inspection and records process. So if you recognize FIM, you should recognize AMA, because it is the same people doing the tech inspection and the participants are playing with similar rule books.

Ultimately this comes down to one thing....

Dan, if you are serious about Land Speed Racing and celebrating the achievement of those hitting the 200 MPH mark, you would be looking at how to embrace the new members you would receive from sanctioned AMA/FIM record classes into your club structure in an open and transparent matter.

Otherwise.. it's just a self congratulatory good 'ol boys club that is more interested in ritual and than in the achievement of the individual pushing the sport forward.

I spoke with Delvene at the salt in 2013 about including the AMA. I then approached the 2 Club board with the idea and we decided that a 3-5 year program of observation would help us with the decision. I had at least 2 Club motorcycle committee members at the BMST event in 2014 and they reported back that there was no improvement on the AMA side. In fact one of them hide an easter egg tech problem on his bike and it was not found.

A few more events may show the AMA reps that the Club takes it's membership very seriously.

[RichFox]

I am not a member. Nor will I ever be. But I do know that a "club" can chose to allow membership any way it pleases. It exists solely at the pleasure of it's members. If it is important to you that you can become a member of said club. It's up to you to meet the requirements of the club. It always kills me when someone wants to join an established organization, and expects that organization to meet his requirements, rather than the other way around. Much like people coming to our country and then complaining we are not more like where they are from. Same mentality.   

[TrickyDicky]

I don’t want to belong to any club that would accept me as one of its members.

[rouse]

I am not a member. Nor will I ever be. But I do know that a "club" can chose to allow membership any way it pleases. It exists solely at the pleasure of it's members. If it is important to you that you can become a member of said club. It's up to you to meet the requirements of the club. It always kills me when someone wants to join an established organization, and expects that organization to meet his requirements, rather than the other way around. Much like people coming to our country and then complaining we are not more like where they are from. Same mentality.   

Well Said.

As far as I'm concerned the AMA is getting the recognition they deserve, ie none.

Rouse

[nrhs sales]

What has the AMA done to you Rouse that you are so bitter?  Have you participated in a Bubs/BMST event and had a bad experience?

 As far as I can tell they stepped up to the plate to sanction the only motorcycle exclusive LSR event in the country.

I myself appreciate what the AMA and BMST have done for motorcycle LSR racing and will do everything I can to support them.

[rouse]

What has the AMA done to you Rouse that you are so bitter?  Have you participated in a Bubs/BMST event and had a bad experience?

 As far as I can tell they stepped up to the plate to sanction the only motorcycle exclusive LSR event in the country.

I myself appreciate what the AMA and BMST have done for motorcycle LSR racing and will do everything I can to support them.

First of all I'm no where near being bitter, in fact I'm actually usually fairly nice in the whole scheme of things in general.

No in fact I have never run the Bubs or BMST as I really had no interest in taking part in any AMA sanctioned event. That's no disparagement at all for the folks that work hard to put on the event itself, I just have never had much use for the AMA and the way they police their own rules and class structures, if any at all. Kinda like "run what you brung" call it what you want rule enforcement.

That in my view, is not fare to the participant that seriously build racing vehicles and honestly try to set records. If I put in the time and effort to go after a record, and take the time, expense and meticulously make sure I build to set rules and regulations, then It's only fare that anyone else that runs against that same record is restrained by those same rules and regulations.

Now if I was going to go run a "run what you brung" event, then that would be a different deal entirely. It's just not practical for me to haul 1,800 miles each way just for that. In that case there are closer Mile venues to go to.

The following thread should help give you an idea of what I'm talking about, 

 http://www.landracing.com/forum/index.php/topic,14400.15.html 

Keep in mind, that my PP bike met all the SCTA requirements including production and sales minimums.

Rouse



   

[bak189]

For those of us who have been alive and around LSR/SCTA/AMA/FIM as far back as 1954, know that at one time SCTA and AMA did work together...............in the mid 1970's there were some major problems between SCTA and AMA.............SCTA dumped the AMA........Jack Dolan took over the M/C'S classes (and did a outstanding job) for SCTA............from that time on "the good old boys" have held a "grudge" toward the AMA.........................What is interesting (as noted above) that the same people that do Tech and cert. of records for the AMA also do FIM at the BMST. The "club" will allow FIM over 200mph....but not AMA......If the AMA is "loose" on their Tech and record cert. I would think that FIM Tech and records would also be "loose"....
Or (Dan can correct me if I am wrong) does the "club" not allow over 200mph FIM racers from the BMST event?................

[donpearsall]

I have attended both SCTA and AMA land speed racing events and have records from both venues. I feel I have to come to the defense of the AMA tech stewards such as Drew (who ALSO the FIM tech steward) and the others who are there to measure displacement and check for class compliance. I have had some of my record attempts disqualified due to their diligence in enforcing the rule book. I was not happy about that, but respected them for their preservation of the records. I will match their knowledge and integrity with the SCTA tech crew.

In my experience, there was no difference in how my record attempts were verified from SCTA to AMA.

Don