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Author Topic: Seats and Helmet and the rules  (Read 8268 times)

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Offline Slide

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Seats and Helmet and the rules
« on: November 24, 2015, 05:18:52 AM »
Hey guys, I am reading through the rule book, trying to sort out some equipment. Specifically seats...

The car is a 2013 Subaru STi that I am hoping to go over 200 mph with...So that should help with what class and the amount of safety needed. I am trying to go over on safety because...well...I care less about doing the bare minimum to go fastest and more about being safe and just having fun.

I am going to have Shuken racing build the cage etc and we were in the beginnings of the conversation about the rules etc...He mentioned to look closely about the head safety stuff, as its gotten more strict recently.

I will be using a Hans device... I love them, I swear by them... I was a PIT instructor at my police department and getting PIt'd 600 times every thursday was a much less pain in the neck with using it...

So the rules say in 3.A.3; ...The seat roll cage structure.... shall provide restriction to lateral head movement of less than two inches per side inclusive of structure deflection, and at minimum extend to the forward most portion of the helmet, see section 3.B.1...

3.B.1 says that there needs to be a minimum of 3 inches clearance to the Helmet....

So I am confused...

Does this mean, my HANS device needs to restrict movement to less than 2 inches, or that there needs to be a physical barrier to limit travel to 2 inches?

And then finally...The seats I was planning on using... SABELT GT-300
http://www.sabelt.com/en/racing/Products/allestimento-vettura/sedili/Pages/04GT-300.aspx

They have extensions to reduce helmet pinball against the chassis/window/cage... Does this qualify as to the restriction that limits movement that has to protrude out in front of the helmet?

Or do they mean the roll cage has to be built as a cocoon that surrounds the driver and the vertical bars left and right of the drivers head need to be a few inches from the head, and be built out in front of the helmet...So you kind of sit inside of a cage inside of your cage inside of your car? (If that is the case I would go with the SABELT GT-200 where there is not the head extensions and allows a little more side view...I will also be doing track days with the car and it helps to see your mirrors! For reference on that seat:
http://www.sabelt.com/en/racing/Products/allestimento-vettura/sedili/Pages/05GT-200.aspx

Will this seat/Hans device count as legal for the above rules...And then of course add into the mix the cage to be built around the whole thing?

Also seat material... This is an FIA approved carbon/composite seat. Section 3.D.1 say composit seats need to be approved by the tech committee.

Thanks for any guidance on this. I hope these questions arent too confusing.

Off to read more rule book!!!


Offline Milwaukee Midget

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Re: Seats and Helmet and the rules
« Reply #1 on: November 24, 2015, 08:54:17 AM »


"there needs to be a physical barrier to limit travel to 2 inches"






"left and right of the drivers head need to be a few inches from the head, and be built out in front of the helmet"



As to the dual purpose aspect - a Bonneville car and a track day car with the ability to use rear view mirrors - I might suggest a hinged arrangement of lateral head restraint or cage structure that could be removed for track day events with some sort of heavy duty engineered latch and removable pins.

The lateral restraints need to extend to the front of the helmet.

It's my understanding that the length of the lateral restraints prevents your head from getting wedged outside of the seat in the event of a crash.  Those belts will stretch, and we don't want your coconut slammed between the outside of a short lateral restraint and your side window.

That would be uncomfortable.

« Last Edit: November 24, 2015, 08:56:25 AM by Milwaukee Midget »
"Problems are almost always a sign of progress."  Harold Bettes
Well, I guess we're making a LOT of progress . . .  :roll:

We are NOT rebuilding . . . We are reloading.

GOD SAVE MG - The Queen can take care of herself!

Offline redhotracing

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Re: Seats and Helmet and the rules
« Reply #2 on: November 24, 2015, 09:09:08 AM »
Slide- glad to hear that you're going above and beyond on safety. The seat must be made of metal (unless you want to petition the SCTA) so I would start looking at something like this:

http://www.smileysracing.com/shopping/productDetails.aspx?i=100407

We use an Ultrashield seat, which is comparable to Butler, Kirkey, etc. for a reasonable price. We also use a HANS device.

You can go one of two ways...

(1) Your cage builder can integrate a "funny car" (SFI 25.2?) inner cage which (with SFI padding) puts your helmet within the defined tolerances. This would allow you to use a "standard" metal seat, which is markedly cheaper (but not usually as strong on the bottom end) than a full containment seat.

(2) You can put a full containment seat with the "new" equal-length helmet extensions with integrated SFI padding.

If possible, you could/should do both; the Funny Car cage will provide more protection while possibly giving you additional mounting points for the full containment seat.
Luke- Winston Salem, NC
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Ohio 2 Club- 203.712 (2013)

Offline Slide

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Re: Seats and Helmet and the rules
« Reply #3 on: November 24, 2015, 11:33:22 AM »
I think I am going to petition for those seats. I've run Kirky seats before. One car, mine, I bought them, after them being suggested to me and the second in a group owned lemons/chump series car, and they were the most uncomfortable, horrible seats that I have ever been in.

Probably fine for a five minute jaunt down the salt etc, but absolutely horrible if you have to turn right left, stop go for 20 mins to an hour and a half in an endurance race...

I think...maybe...I understand the cage rule. I have been google image searching for land speed cages in production cars to see what's been run so I can get a visual idea.

So far, I have seen what looks like a drag car driver cage, grafted into a typical road race cage...so the driver has his own double or triple hoop that is behind, beside and in front of him...almost completely separate from the typical a and b pillar hoops for a car.

Offline bearingburner

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Re: Seats and Helmet and the rules
« Reply #4 on: November 24, 2015, 06:05:28 PM »
Take a look in the build diaries for door slammers. There should be some pictures of various roll cages and helmet side
slap limiters.

Offline Slide

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Re: Seats and Helmet and the rules
« Reply #5 on: November 24, 2015, 09:29:04 PM »


http://www.landracing.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=14415.0;attach=48331;image

I was looking at these two. So it looks like the drivers roll hoop extend to front of where your head would be. I would definitely want a seat with head bolsters so my helmet didn't bounce off the metal bars during any sort of extra curricular excursions!!!

Offline Milwaukee Midget

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Re: Seats and Helmet and the rules
« Reply #6 on: November 24, 2015, 11:28:13 PM »
My issue (well, one of many) was a lack of space.

What I did was to design a lateral restraint extension that attached to the roll cage, and it's hinged for access.  It's an MG Midget I race, so apace is at a premium, unlike your typical Subaru Land Yacht.   :wink:

But essentially, it's a spring loaded deadbolt, and since this mock-up (old picture), I've padded it up and replaced the bolt with a spring clip pin.  It can be removed for your road racing, and when you're on the salt, you pull the latch and swing it out of the way.




You're going to running a lot faster than me, so you'll want to design something a bit more substantial, but there are creative ways to integrate Bonneville safety requirements and still maintain your car as a door slammer.
"Problems are almost always a sign of progress."  Harold Bettes
Well, I guess we're making a LOT of progress . . .  :roll:

We are NOT rebuilding . . . We are reloading.

GOD SAVE MG - The Queen can take care of herself!

Offline Slide

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Re: Seats and Helmet and the rules
« Reply #7 on: November 25, 2015, 12:00:19 AM »
What do you run for s seat on the track?

Offline Milwaukee Midget

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Re: Seats and Helmet and the rules
« Reply #8 on: November 25, 2015, 08:18:42 AM »
What do you run for s seat on the track?

Didn't mean to mislead you - the only other "tracks" I've been on were the Mile at Maxton and Great Lakes Dragaway.  I'm using the Kirkey economy drag seat, but let me suggest something.

I'd get ahold of Kent Riches.  He's made some custom seats that have been approved by SCTA-BNI, and he's a master with all forms of carbon fiber.  Let him know what you're doing, how you need it to work, and who you're working with on the cage build.  Kent knows EVERYBODY, he knows who to call to get a design approved, he knows LSR, and his craftsmanship as A1.

If there's a way of designing a seat that will work for both road racing and LSR, I think he's the guy to figure it out.

http://www.eracebike.com/contactus.html
"Problems are almost always a sign of progress."  Harold Bettes
Well, I guess we're making a LOT of progress . . .  :roll:

We are NOT rebuilding . . . We are reloading.

GOD SAVE MG - The Queen can take care of herself!

Offline Slide

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Re: Seats and Helmet and the rules
« Reply #9 on: November 25, 2015, 05:53:58 PM »
Ill drop them an email right now (as its dang near thanksgiving, dont want to call)

Offline Joe Timney

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Re: Seats and Helmet and the rules
« Reply #10 on: November 25, 2015, 06:38:06 PM »
The object of using a full containment seat is to control the head, shoulders and hips...failure to do that results in the possibility of injury. As a dealer for Ultrashield and Kirkey, I have had the opportunity get quite the education and test results and I would recommend running a professionally built seat.
Feel free to call if you are looking for more info.
Joe Timney
Retired President of ECTA
President of Delaware Chassis Works
www.delawarechassisworks.com

Offline Slide

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Re: Seats and Helmet and the rules
« Reply #11 on: November 25, 2015, 07:10:18 PM »
I agree. The gt300 is an FIA full containment seat...and way more comfortable than the Kirky... And I assume the ultra shield for what I need.

I am just hoping I can get approval for a more comfortable seat.

Offline Joe Timney

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Re: Seats and Helmet and the rules
« Reply #12 on: November 25, 2015, 07:17:33 PM »
A SFI 20 fire suit has all the comfort you need...when the the motor lights...you won't know the difference...unless you need more motor!
Joe Timney
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President of Delaware Chassis Works
www.delawarechassisworks.com

Offline Joe Timney

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Re: Seats and Helmet and the rules
« Reply #13 on: November 25, 2015, 07:29:15 PM »
I forgot to mention that I have worked with Ultrashield and Kirkey to develop SCTA legal road race rib cage style full containment seats. The head rests extend 13 inches forward.

Joe Timney
Retired President of ECTA
President of Delaware Chassis Works
www.delawarechassisworks.com