Author Topic: Misting vs. Icing Radiator  (Read 19985 times)

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Offline bdwilson24

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Misting vs. Icing Radiator
« on: June 25, 2015, 03:24:28 PM »
I'm a mechanical engineering student that is part of a team designing an electric streamliner. I'm currently working on the cooling system. Since we're avoiding the use of air ducts, I'm trying to find the best method to cool all of our systems. After looking into what other teams have done in the past, I've noticed that a lot of people place their radiators in an ice/water bath, which is one of the options I'm considering.

Knowing that the heat of vaporization of water is much greater than the heat of fusion, I have also been considering misting water onto the radiator because the heat transfer rate would be higher, less water would need to be stored in a tank, and the amount of water in the car would become less during the run since it's evaporating.

Are there specific reasons why it is common to see radiators in an ice/water bath versus having water sprayed on a radiator to evaporate?

Offline ronnieroadster

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Re: Misting vs. Icing Radiator
« Reply #1 on: June 25, 2015, 05:05:24 PM »
The misting idea to me would seem like a safety issue. Would that damp vapor not eventually turn back to a liquid? Having a liquid leak inside the enclosed body can become a big issue and if any of the liquid gets outside the body the potential for spillage on the race surface would be a very dangerous thing.
 On our Land Speed vehicles any additional weight from a radiator inside a water tank would be used for additional ballast which in Land Speed Racing you will find is a good thing.
 Your thinking outside the box is exactly what we here on this forum are all about your question is very good and the overall application may well be approved good luck with the project.
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Offline Interested Observer

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Re: Misting vs. Icing Radiator
« Reply #2 on: June 25, 2015, 07:39:12 PM »
Quote
we're avoiding the use of air ducts

How are you going to vaporize without air?

What temperatures and heat quantities and flow rates are you trying to handle?

The specific reason  is that the radiator-in-a-box allows a convenient way to raise the pressure of the engine coolant and therefore the boiling temperature, while minimizing aero drag that would be incurred if the radiator were to be air cooled.
Otherwise, you just circulate the cold water reservoir through the engine.

Offline Rex Schimmer

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Re: Misting vs. Icing Radiator
« Reply #3 on: June 25, 2015, 09:22:01 PM »
The "radiator in a box" cooling has been used very successfully at Bonneville but it is not optimum in my opinion as most of them lack an effective method of circulating the cooling water through the radiator matrix and and are successful because of gross over-sizing of the radiator. If you know your heat load I would highly recommend using a brazed plate heat exchanger. You do need to have two water pumps, one for the water (or fluid) that is circulated through your device and one for the cooling water, but they are extremely efficient and amazingly small for the amount that they can dissipate.  This is a site that you can get an idea from.  http://www.brazetek.com/brazed-plate-heat-exchangers

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Offline manta22

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Re: Misting vs. Icing Radiator
« Reply #4 on: June 25, 2015, 09:33:26 PM »
Or you could use a "total loss" system and vent the boil-off overboard.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ

Offline donpearsall

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Re: Misting vs. Icing Radiator
« Reply #5 on: June 25, 2015, 11:26:49 PM »
I have never understood the need for a radiator in a tank at all. It seems redundant. If you have cool water in the tank to start with, you just circulate that into the engine (using a thermostat). The radiator is just dispersing the engine heat into the water the same way the engine cooling jacket does only the radiator is a more inefficient way to do it. Additionally, you do have to circulate the water around the radiator just as if it were air, which again is redundant.

Also, I have to disagree that the vaporization of water by misting the radiator is better cooling. When you mist a radiator by spraying water mist on it, there may not be any vaporization at all. The water droplets may pick up some heat, but never vaporize. So you blow in cool mist, and warm mist comes out. Then you still have to have a way to get the mist out, which means venting it.

I ran my turbo Hayabusa for 5 miles runs with nothing but a 9 gallon water tank. The water was hot at the end, but the engine never overheated. That engine produces up to 500hp at 28 pounds and believe me, that is a lot of BTUs.

Doln
550 hp 2003 Suzuki Hayabusa Land Speed Racer

Offline John Burk

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Re: Misting vs. Icing Radiator
« Reply #6 on: June 26, 2015, 12:10:41 AM »
Pressurizing the engine / radiator in the tank water and not the tank is a good design . If the tank water overheats the boiling around the radiator still cools the engine .

Offline bdwilson24

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Re: Misting vs. Icing Radiator
« Reply #7 on: June 26, 2015, 12:18:40 AM »
The misting idea to me would seem like a safety issue. Would that damp vapor not eventually turn back to a liquid? Having a liquid leak inside the enclosed body can become a big issue and if any of the liquid gets outside the body the potential for spillage on the race surface would be a very dangerous thing.
 On our Land Speed vehicles any additional weight from a radiator inside a water tank would be used for additional ballast which in Land Speed Racing you will find is a good thing.
 Your thinking outside the box is exactly what we here on this forum are all about your question is very good and the overall application may well be approved good luck with the project.
Or you could use a "total loss" system and vent the boil-off overboard.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ

If we are to use this method, the vapor would be vented out the rear of the car. We are also running in the electric E-1 class, so we have a maximum weight limit of 1,100 lbs. that we are trying to satisfy. I have been looking at a lot of ideas, and since our team is new to LSR cars (the team previously built jet dragsters), we are trying hard to find out from people with experience what has worked in the past, what didn't, and what people are trying next.

The "radiator in a box" cooling has been used very successfully at Bonneville but it is not optimum in my opinion as most of them lack an effective method of circulating the cooling water through the radiator matrix and and are successful because of gross over-sizing of the radiator. If you know your heat load I would highly recommend using a brazed plate heat exchanger. You do need to have two water pumps, one for the water (or fluid) that is circulated through your device and one for the cooling water, but they are extremely efficient and amazingly small for the amount that they can dissipate.  This is a site that you can get an idea from.  http://www.brazetek.com/brazed-plate-heat-exchangers

Rex

I've been exploring tube & shell and finned-tubes, but I haven't looked into brazed plate heat exchangers. I will definitely check that out.

Quote
we're avoiding the use of air ducts

How are you going to vaporize without air?

What temperatures and heat quantities and flow rates are you trying to handle?

The specific reason  is that the radiator-in-a-box allows a convenient way to raise the pressure of the engine coolant and therefore the boiling temperature, while minimizing aero drag that would be incurred if the radiator were to be air cooled.
Otherwise, you just circulate the cold water reservoir through the engine.

I was planning on pumping water from a tank through misting nozzles pointed at the hot radiator. The idea is used in evaporative coolers. The hottest part of the system will have dielectric oil at about 320F and a heat transfer rate of about 133 BTU/second. The flow rate of the oil at this point is about 13 GPM. This is obviously a lot of heat, and I'm trying to manage it without getting too heavy.

Just to explain this cooling circuit a little better: there are 4 electric motors, each of which has an operating temperature of 65C and a dielectric oil flow rate of 12 L/min (I'm giving the numbers in the units their spec sheets give).

I APPRECIATE ALL OF YOUR FEEDBACK!

Offline JimL

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Re: Misting vs. Icing Radiator
« Reply #8 on: June 26, 2015, 01:13:10 AM »
From experience running high voltage out there (we were 550V after the inverter on the Prius), I would suggest keeping everything as dry and clean as possible in your car.  The amount of salt accretion in the damp air is significant.  As it was, we had to shop-vac every nook and cranny after every run to prevent current leakage detection algorithm causing problems on the next run.  After hours in line, you don't want to glitch right off the line.

There is enough vibration during a run that loose salt can be powdered and drift through the interior of the car.  Any place that is moist will gather salt and you might find a surprise waiting for you at dawn in impound.  We were very careful to thoroughly vacuum the battery pack area, also (of course, we never went to impound with our entry for Time Only).

Hope this helps your planning.

P.S.
Any chance you could run liquid nitrogen cooling using carbon fiber canister?  You have a much higher temp delta than we were looking at (which is better) and bleeding off the boiled liquid nitrogen would be a non-issue in a high voltage environment.  If you need to cool for more than a couple minutes, I think something would be really wrong.
« Last Edit: June 26, 2015, 01:27:09 AM by JimL »

Offline Rex Schimmer

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Re: Misting vs. Icing Radiator
« Reply #9 on: June 26, 2015, 07:06:15 AM »
Looking at your requirements and since your primary cooling fluid is oil you do need some sort of heat exchanger so it would certainly appear that the brazed plate style should work well for you. My experience with this type of exchanger is in the industrial hydraulics field,we used this type of exchanger  in many systems and dissipated as high as 200+ horse power through them at flow rates in the 40 to 50 gpm area. Do your electric motors have an integrated oil pump that provides the 12 l/min oil flow rate? I can see that trying to make the 1100 lbs weight limit could really be a challenge which is another plus for this type of exchanger as they are amazingly small for the amount of cooling they provide. The cooling water reservoir can be kept small if you use large amounts of ice in it which will provide you with with additional cooling potential due to the phase change from solid to liquid that happens at 32 deg F.

I would heed JML's comments regarding the infiltration of salt into your race car. It is a huge problem and with your car  having  some very high voltage/current potential I would think that preventing salt contamination would be very high on your list.

Rex
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Offline TheBaron

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Re: Misting vs. Icing Radiator
« Reply #10 on: June 26, 2015, 10:25:20 AM »
Guys,

You are overthinking this a wee bit.

The lightest, simplest, easiest, and most efficient way to do this is to put the oil heat-exchanger  in a container of water and let the water boil away (total loss).

Air Racers in the 70's worked all this out and it work just fine as long as you don't run out of water, and we used have to run at max power for more than 10 minutes !

At a 6000' DA the water boil at about 94 C, if I remember correctly) which is a very good temp range for the oil.

This system can be screwed up, of course, by failing to provide a container that has room and is orientated for water circulation into the core as the steam bubbles are working their way up and out of the core channels. More that one engine failure occurred because this oversight.

Try it,,, you'll like it

Robert

 

Offline JimL

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Re: Misting vs. Icing Radiator
« Reply #11 on: June 26, 2015, 11:58:32 AM »
One more thought:  if you have not done so, please get in touch with the Class chair for these E streamliners.  They have more history, with these projects, than you might realize.

Many years ago I had some minor involvement in an E II planning activity.  We were advised that the electrolyte and cooling medium were essentially considered "consummables" because they may be completely used up during a run and would not be practical to measure as part of vehicle weight.

As it was explained to me:
- The class certification is performed/inspected when the car is presented at impound AFTER your return run, and after your "fuel/electrolyte and/or coolant" may be expended.  You should work out your weight certification method with SCTA-BNI, before you arrive to chase your record.  The vehicle AS IT FINISHED THE RETURN RUN is what sets a record.  That was why we intended to evaporate away our cooling medium for a weight limited class.

My small experience was many years ago and methods may have changed or improved, so get in touch with the men in charge.

Offline bdwilson24

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Re: Misting vs. Icing Radiator
« Reply #12 on: June 26, 2015, 12:07:45 PM »
From experience running high voltage out there (we were 550V after the inverter on the Prius), I would suggest keeping everything as dry and clean as possible in your car.  The amount of salt accretion in the damp air is significant.  As it was, we had to shop-vac every nook and cranny after every run to prevent current leakage detection algorithm causing problems on the next run.  After hours in line, you don't want to glitch right off the line.

There is enough vibration during a run that loose salt can be powdered and drift through the interior of the car.  Any place that is moist will gather salt and you might find a surprise waiting for you at dawn in impound.  We were very careful to thoroughly vacuum the battery pack area, also (of course, we never went to impound with our entry for Time Only).

Hope this helps your planning.

P.S.
Any chance you could run liquid nitrogen cooling using carbon fiber canister?  You have a much higher temp delta than we were looking at (which is better) and bleeding off the boiled liquid nitrogen would be a non-issue in a high voltage environment.  If you need to cool for more than a couple minutes, I think something would be really wrong.


I hadn't thought about the water moisture collecting salt. I will take note of that. We will be using four batteries, each at 400V and 300A.

We were looking into liquid nitrogen and dry ice because of the extremely high temperature difference, but when I ran the numbers, the weight and volume of water needed was much less than the others. We're planning for a 2-minute run and assuming maximum power for the entire time to play it safe.

I ran some numbers estimating how much ice water I would need to dump the amount of heat we're expecting and it comes out to about 28 gal which is about 225 lbs. That really puts us to the limits of our weight, so I also checked out putting the heat exchanger in dry ice and the numbers I got were about 0.664 cu. ft. of dry ice to start, which is only about 64.7 lbs. Using dry ice would obviously be a total loss type of system.

Do you guys have any concerns with using the dry ice for a heat sink?

And thanks JimL, I will contact them to find out about the weight.

Offline JimL

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Re: Misting vs. Icing Radiator
« Reply #13 on: June 26, 2015, 12:41:48 PM »
I see we are writing at the same moment, talking past each other.  One of the methods we did consider was using water and misting it off during the run, because the weight at starting would not have been measured weight. 

Back in the day, as they say, we were particularly interested in leaving the line with a little more traction weight rearward while allowing the car to become more forward weight biased as it came to speed.  Our cooling needs were different than yours, because we had an operating target of 145F for the stack but much less battery weight to carry.  We had less heat to dissipate, but a narrower differential to sink it into (compared to ambient).  That was the issue that forced early fuel cell cars into massive radiator capacity requirements.....not enough temp difference to radiate efficiently.

If you do dry ice, I would bulkhead the entire system behind the driver to prevent possible asphyxiation.  Now that I know your voltage, I would be nervous about a water cooled, elecrolytic oil system.  Those oils and greases need very little water to become conductive. 

The possibility of vibration fracture, at speed on the salt, is NOT zero.  On high pressure tires, in a rigidly caged and suspended vehicle, the amount of banging, shaking, and buzzing is a real eye opener your first time at speed.  All of us have had stuff break, fall off, come loose, etc.

These considerations should be part of your "what if" discussions.  In the end, your safety is in your own hands and high DC voltage in a salt environment is very, very serious.


Offline maj

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Re: Misting vs. Icing Radiator
« Reply #14 on: June 26, 2015, 05:37:50 PM »
Dry ice and silicone fluid (oil) as the carrier