Author Topic: Radiator or None? Question from a rookie  (Read 6095 times)

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Offline TugBoat123

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Radiator or None? Question from a rookie
« on: March 13, 2015, 01:31:12 AM »
Hi all!
    We are building a D/GL (305 ci Gas lakester). We are currently discussing running a radiator. We feel as though we should, however, a reputable racer suggested just running NO radiator and just a tank of water. What are your thoughts? Also, how would I go about doing the calculation to figure out water temps created by an engine (305 ci small block Chevy naturally aspirated) when running at half throttle for about two minutes and then running full throttle for one and a half minutes? Thanks in advance for any input. I'm very curious about how to compute these figures for myself in the future.

Offline jacksoni

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Re: Radiator or None? Question from a rookie
« Reply #1 on: March 13, 2015, 08:12:21 AM »
Hi all!
    We are building a D/GL (305 ci Gas lakester). We are currently discussing running a radiator. We feel as though we should, however, a reputable racer suggested just running NO radiator and just a tank of water. What are your thoughts? Also, how would I go about doing the calculation to figure out water temps created by an engine (305 ci small block Chevy naturally aspirated) when running at half throttle for about two minutes and then running full throttle for one and a half minutes? Thanks in advance for any input. I'm very curious about how to compute these figures for myself in the future.
I'd be willing to bet ( well not a lot but a few beers anyway) that there is not a single lakester nor streamliner out there with a radiator, at least not one out in the wind. In a tank maybe. There are a lot of cars with water tanks, ice tanks, radiators in tanks etc that do fine. There are several threads on here about tank sizing and such topics including this active one:
 http://www.landracing.com/forum/index.php/topic,14884.0.html

do a search and you will find some. For that matter, there are many questions that have been asked in the past and a frequent reply from some one is do a search. After that if you don't find the answer, post up your question.

I know is not the same but a lot of drag cars make a lot of power and run with only a little water in the block- or none.  Part of your packaging issue with a special construction build (lakester or liner) will be packaging- you, engine, fuel tank, fire bottles, water tank etc, etc. Gets kinda tight in there. There are also a lot of threads about aero and weight and CG placement vs CP. Don't put it all in the back of the car- helps traction but not aero stability. Look carefully at them as well as you continue your planning. Continue to have fun. Pick local brains. Be safe. Go fast. 8-)
Jack Iliff
 G/BGS-250.235 1987
 G/GC- 193.550 2021
  G/FAlt- 193.934 2021 (196.033 best)
 G/GMS-182.144 2019

Offline kiwi belly tank

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Re: Radiator or None? Question from a rookie
« Reply #2 on: March 13, 2015, 11:31:40 AM »
Yep, what he said.
Water to water cooler, pressurise the engine not the secondary.
  Sid.

Offline TugBoat123

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Re: Radiator or None? Question from a rookie
« Reply #3 on: March 13, 2015, 11:17:04 PM »
Okay. Thanks so much for the reply. I'll try to be better about searching more in the future.

Offline jimmy six

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Re: Radiator or None? Question from a rookie
« Reply #4 on: March 15, 2015, 10:49:38 PM »
Tug, I've never built a lakester but believe ones design has a lot to do with it. A deceased friend built a slab side lakester that had radiators along the sides. With some thought ducting could easily be made for air flow. Even using a stock water pump with an aux electric water pump to use after shut down is very doable. If your designing a Costella lawn dart you may have a problem but no one tells you what to build. It seams like all the turbo charged lakesters users seam to find room for an inner cooler. So have at it and good luck
First GMC 6 powered Fuel roadster over 200, with 2 red hats. Pit crew for Patrick Tone's Super Stock #49 Camaro

Offline jacksoni

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Re: Radiator or None? Question from a rookie
« Reply #5 on: March 16, 2015, 04:36:40 PM »
Tug, I've never built a lakester but believe ones design has a lot to do with it. A deceased friend built a slab side lakester that had radiators along the sides. With some thought ducting could easily be made for air flow. Even using a stock water pump with an aux electric water pump to use after shut down is very doable. If your designing a Costella lawn dart you may have a problem but no one tells you what to build. It seams like all the turbo charged lakesters users seam to find room for an inner cooler. So have at it and good luck
See, why I was only willing to bet beer so I owe you. However, any air going through a radiator causes drag and a lot of it. =Why it is illegal to block off radiators in production and GC classes. But as pointed out, you can build what you want. Proceed..
Jack Iliff
 G/BGS-250.235 1987
 G/GC- 193.550 2021
  G/FAlt- 193.934 2021 (196.033 best)
 G/GMS-182.144 2019

Offline lsrjunkie

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Re: Radiator or None? Question from a rookie
« Reply #6 on: March 25, 2015, 10:17:49 AM »
Tug, being a newbie myself I posed the same question a while back and got some good information from our fellow members, including some fancy pants math to figure out tank sizing. Lemme see if I can find a link to the topic and I'll post it up for you.
Maybe there is no Heaven. Or maybe this is all pure gibberish. The product of a demented hill billy who has found a way to live out where the winds blow. To sleep late, have fun, drink whiskey, and drive fast on empty streets with nothing in mind except falling in love or getting arrested.    H.S. Thompson

Offline lsrjunkie

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Re: Radiator or None? Question from a rookie
« Reply #7 on: March 25, 2015, 10:25:36 AM »
Tug, Took me a minute, but here it is. Hope this helps.

http://www.landracing.com/forum/index.php/topic,14302.0.html
Maybe there is no Heaven. Or maybe this is all pure gibberish. The product of a demented hill billy who has found a way to live out where the winds blow. To sleep late, have fun, drink whiskey, and drive fast on empty streets with nothing in mind except falling in love or getting arrested.    H.S. Thompson

Offline Jim Phelps

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Re: Radiator or None? Question from a rookie
« Reply #8 on: March 31, 2015, 08:38:45 AM »
I am also new here (but I have an engineering background) so I thought I would run through this problem to help my understanding of the technology. The physics/math has already been shown in the 2014 posting but in another form.

Thinking of this as the heating of a water tank with the engine as the heater.  The rate of temperature change is the heat transfer rate divided by the mass times specific heat of water:  change temp/min = (Btu/min) / (m x specific heat).  The specific heat of water is 0.8784 BTU/(lb-F deg) and heat input is amount of HP rejected in BTU/min.  One HP is equivalent to  42.41 BTU/min.

Working out the suggested duty cycle of 2 min at half throttle and 1.5 min at full throttle and using the case listed in the 2014 posting by Harold Bettes, a 20 gallon tank with 33% to 40% of HP generated by the engine is rejected to the coolant,  a 500 HP maximum engine  using the 40% rejects 200 Hp or 8482 BTU/min to the coolant.   At one-half throttle, the heat input would be  halved or 4241 BTU/min.

For a 20 gallon tank there  is a mass of water of 166 lbs. The temp change for the first part of problem is therefor 2 min x 4241/(166 x 0.8784) = 58 F.  The the second part, 1.5  min x 8482/(166 x 8784) = 87 F.  Overall temperature change is 145 F deg.  For an ambient temperature of 70 deg this results in an over temp of 215 degs.
At over 4000 ft elevation, the boiling point of water at Bonneville is 205 F which suggests a pressurized cooling system or a larger water tank.  Because the coolant temperature varies so much over a run, is may be necessary to employ a  thermostat to maximize power utilization.  The effect of a 25 gallon tank on the temperature change can be easily calculated by proportion : 20 x 145 / 25 = 116 F increase, resulting in a final temp for 70 ambient of 186 F.

Offline rouse

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Re: Radiator or None? Question from a rookie
« Reply #9 on: March 31, 2015, 08:55:29 AM »
Jim, the thing you need to look at next (if your looking that close) is the heat of evaporation. That change of phase will prevent the temp from "going over" the BP thus maintaining the BP temp while depleting the liquid water as a gas (Steam). So as long as the liquid last the temp will be steady at the BP. Just add water before your next run.

Rouse
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Offline SPARKY

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Re: Radiator or None? Question from a rookie
« Reply #10 on: March 31, 2015, 09:53:07 AM »
 :dhorse:
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Offline rouse

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Re: Radiator or None? Question from a rookie
« Reply #11 on: March 31, 2015, 09:55:06 AM »
Johnnie Rouse
Bike 4680 P-PP2000 SCTA record 153.325    A-PF3000 182.920
                              Texas Mile 152.518 PP class  186 A-PF Class
If you love your freedom thank a vet.

Offline gas pumper

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Re: Radiator or None? Question from a rookie
« Reply #12 on: March 31, 2015, 08:02:59 PM »
Sid and rouse have the solution. And we have practiced it for three years now. Very small amount of non pressurized water to boil off when conditions require it.

Frank
Crew for 608 AA/GL.
Crew for The Flying Seven, 7207, XO/GCT, V4/FCT Loring.