Author Topic: Coming soon - California Polytechnic's Prototype Vehicle Laboratory  (Read 11937 times)

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Offline Graham

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Thought I would give you all a bit of a heads-up: in a few months' time I'll be excited to make a new, more detailed post on this board about the revitalization of California Polytechnic State University's wind tunnel facilities - we inherited the rolling road from Dan Gurney's All American Racers in Santa Ana and are working on building a new test section and instrumentation that will allow us to run approx. 1/3 to 1/2 scale models, high-resolution 3d printed at relatively little expense, in accurate conditions which can't be achieved at all in wind tunnels with fixed floors.

I think it will provide some relatively cost-effective testing - for land speed record racers amongst others - at the design stage (as opposed to after a full scale version is built, tunnel tested at usually great expense in a full-scale tunnel, and then needs to be modified at more great time and expense) - we'll be backing up tunnel testing with CFD simulation to get the best of both worlds in terms of getting the most effective optimization for any particular time/budget constraint, as well as training our students up for industry. I hope we'll be open to all-comers in 2016, and we'll be eying up a speed record or two ourself in the coming years.

I'll let you know more once there's more to know, but in the meantime I thought I'd post something so I could gauge the interest level a bit and incorporate that into our planning. Let me know if you have a burning question and I'll do my best to answer it!
« Last Edit: January 26, 2015, 12:01:31 AM by Graham »
Graham Doig
Fluids Laboratory for Interdisciplinary Projects - www.thinkflip.net
Aerospace Engineering Department
California Polytechnic State University

Offline wobblywalrus

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Re: Coming soon - California Polytechnic's Prototype Vehicle Laboratory
« Reply #1 on: January 27, 2015, 12:03:27 AM »
Graham, there are all sorts of topics on this site about aero.  Some wind tunnel modeling of the things we discuss would be easy and informative.  As an example of one, are there advantages to using an open tail end as opposed to a closed on on a partially streamlined bike?

Offline Graham

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Re: Coming soon - California Polytechnic's Prototype Vehicle Laboratory
« Reply #2 on: January 30, 2015, 02:03:46 AM »
That's a good question, and may actually depend on the bike (how partial the partial streamlining is, the shape of the tire, the rider's position)... I'm hoping my students will be able to tackle some generic problems like that by producing some validation cases that will be of interest to many in this forums. We're also aiming at producing models of popular racing cars such as Radicals or even F3 cars so that teams without their own aero development facilities (which would be most, in those categories) can play around with setups before hitting the track.

For those who are interested, here's what the moving ground looks like - we're re-designing a new test section around it as it's a shade larger than what we have right now.



Graham Doig
Fluids Laboratory for Interdisciplinary Projects - www.thinkflip.net
Aerospace Engineering Department
California Polytechnic State University

Offline Rex Schimmer

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Re: Coming soon - California Polytechnic's Prototype Vehicle Laboratory
« Reply #3 on: January 30, 2015, 03:19:20 PM »
Graham,
Since your tunnel has a moving floor how about doing something for us lakester guys and running some different tire/wheel combinations so we can see what really works and what doesn't. I would think that you would be able to run a complete wheel assembly in your tunnel. I am sure that if one of your students did this as a project there would be a lot of lakester "guys" that could supply wheels and tires for testing.

Rex
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Offline Stan Back

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Re: Coming soon - California Polytechnic's Prototype Vehicle Laboratory
« Reply #4 on: January 30, 2015, 07:58:44 PM »
It uses 1/3- to 1/2-size models.
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Offline Rex Schimmer

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Re: Coming soon - California Polytechnic's Prototype Vehicle Laboratory
« Reply #5 on: January 31, 2015, 02:57:45 PM »
Stan,
I am talking about only running the tire/wheel not the whole car and I would think that a tire/wheel assembly would be somewhat smaller in cross section and area than a 30 or 40% model.

Graham, your input please.

Rex
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Offline Graham

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Re: Coming soon - California Polytechnic's Prototype Vehicle Laboratory
« Reply #6 on: January 31, 2015, 03:52:10 PM »
Stan,
I am talking about only running the tire/wheel not the whole car and I would think that a tire/wheel assembly would be somewhat smaller in cross section and area than a 30 or 40% model.

Graham, your input please.

Rex

Sounds do-able to me. We've yet to really define what the supports and force balance will be like so it's good for me to think about how we'd test configurations like this. A large part of the work that the students will do will be to generate validation data for CFD simulations - I've had students in the past do wheel work but we've never been that convinced, or confident enough to pursue further, without some detailed physical test results to compare to. Given size and speed limitations in wind tunnels, simulations should really be in the mix at all stages as it is in the top-tier motorsport categories, but without an accuracy benchmark you can really fool yourself.

I like the idea of small-scale crowd-funding for projects like this, if a few racers were willing to chip in for materials that basically support the student project, then we'll certainly be able to run test programs as final year projects for student teams - hopefully you guys can have some burning questions answered and we can build up something of a repository of useful aero info for land speed racers who can't individually spring for testing in commercial facilities (i.e. most of us!).
Graham Doig
Fluids Laboratory for Interdisciplinary Projects - www.thinkflip.net
Aerospace Engineering Department
California Polytechnic State University

Offline real norton

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Re: Coming soon - California Polytechnic's Prototype Vehicle Laboratory
« Reply #7 on: January 31, 2015, 05:02:59 PM »
  Hello Graham
  Great project!
  Just curious how does 1/3 to1/2 size relate to motorcycles?
  The rolling road looks large enough for most full size bikes.

Offline Sumner

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Re: Coming soon - California Polytechnic's Prototype Vehicle Laboratory
« Reply #8 on: January 31, 2015, 07:00:51 PM »
Graham,
Since your tunnel has a moving floor how about doing something for us lakester guys and running some different tire/wheel combinations so we can see what really works and what doesn't. I would think that you would be able to run a complete wheel assembly in your tunnel. I am sure that if one of your students did this as a project there would be a lot of lakester "guys" that could supply wheels and tires for testing.

Rex

+1..................... :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:


....I like the idea of small-scale crowd-funding for projects like this, if a few racers were willing to chip in for materials that basically support the student project, then we'll certainly be able to run test programs as final year projects for student teams - hopefully you guys can have some burning questions answered and we can build up something of a repository of useful aero info for land speed racers who can't individually spring for testing in commercial facilities (i.e. most of us!).

Would there be any way to provide data on what could be made and sent to you that would work in your tunnel?  Not sure how to be clearer on what I'm trying to say but for instance say I could send the end of an axle with a wheel/tire on a fixture that could support the wheel/axle and the fixture would be designed to fit in the tunnel and effect the results as little as possible.   It there was a standard way for the fixture to be mounted and we were given the needed dimensions then we might be able to send models, wheel/tires, etc. that could be plugged into the tunnel.

One example of what I'm trying to say is that model railroaders have conventions where you can bring a small layout of your own that has tracks on both ends that will connect to anyone else's layout.  They all plug together into one large layout since the in and out tracks are in the same location on everyone's layout.  But between the ends you can do anything you want.

Thanks for what you are doing with this and one final question.  I have street rod buddies that enroll in their local Jr. College's auto related classes and build their cars in them.  If some old land speed racer type guy lives in your area can they also take your class?

Sumner

Offline Rex Schimmer

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Re: Coming soon - California Polytechnic's Prototype Vehicle Laboratory
« Reply #9 on: January 31, 2015, 07:21:24 PM »
Graham,
Being a "retired person" i.e. lots of time on my hands and having some pretty definite thoughts on wheel/tire streamlining and a shop with enough equipment to either make or assist in making almost anything that you would need to put a wheel/tire into your wind tunnel I would be more that interested in working with one of your students on this type of project. I could also probably supply some wheel/tire combinations that could be tested. I realize that you guys are just starting to get this thing together but put me down as wanting to contribute.

If you want to contact me directly my E mail is: rexschimmer@gmail.com and phone is 707-484-5721

Rex
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Offline Graham

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Re: Coming soon - California Polytechnic's Prototype Vehicle Laboratory
« Reply #10 on: February 08, 2015, 10:04:54 PM »
  Hello Graham
  Great project!
  Just curious how does 1/3 to1/2 size relate to motorcycles?
  The rolling road looks large enough for most full size bikes.

The road itself may just do that, but it's enclosed within a 4ft test section. If we wanted to go larger with the test section (ideally we would!) then we'd need to change basically the whole rest of the tunnel too, and uprate the fan and motor. Very expensive, so not on the immediate agenda. It definitely falls into the category of a development tunnel, rather than a validation tunnel for full-scale vehicles, but that is what allows us to run it at relatively low cost and make it more available to interested parties for projects that involve our keen students.
Graham Doig
Fluids Laboratory for Interdisciplinary Projects - www.thinkflip.net
Aerospace Engineering Department
California Polytechnic State University

Offline Graham

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Re: Coming soon - California Polytechnic's Prototype Vehicle Laboratory
« Reply #11 on: February 08, 2015, 10:13:31 PM »

Would there be any way to provide data on what could be made and sent to you that would work in your tunnel?  Not sure how to be clearer on what I'm trying to say but for instance say I could send the end of an axle with a wheel/tire on a fixture that could support the wheel/axle and the fixture would be designed to fit in the tunnel and effect the results as little as possible.   It there was a standard way for the fixture to be mounted and we were given the needed dimensions then we might be able to send models, wheel/tires, etc. that could be plugged into the tunnel.

One example of what I'm trying to say is that model railroaders have conventions where you can bring a small layout of your own that has tracks on both ends that will connect to anyone else's layout.  They all plug together into one large layout since the in and out tracks are in the same location on everyone's layout.  But between the ends you can do anything you want.


Yes I see what you mean - I think we'll have a pretty bespoke way to mount but that doesn't mean it has to be complicated - happy to make that relatively easy to manufacture for and have the dimensions out there in the public domain.



Thanks for what you are doing with this and one final question.  I have street rod buddies that enroll in their local Jr. College's auto related classes and build their cars in them.  If some old land speed racer type guy lives in your area can they also take your class?

Sumner

No objections at all to someone dropping in on lecture/discussion classes or being involved in wind tunnel lab work, however the course that will be specifically centered around aerodynamic design and development is at the grad level and has some numerical/statistical/software components that are supported by completion of several previous courses (i.e. students come in already trained up in a lot of important areas) so it would be difficult to properly integrate into that one. I would think that if someone in that position was proposing and/or sponsoring a project, they could be fully involved in it and learn along with the students.
Graham Doig
Fluids Laboratory for Interdisciplinary Projects - www.thinkflip.net
Aerospace Engineering Department
California Polytechnic State University

Offline Graham

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Re: Coming soon - California Polytechnic's Prototype Vehicle Laboratory
« Reply #12 on: December 26, 2015, 09:30:04 PM »
Thought some of you might be interested in an update on our wind tunnel and PROVE Lab at Cal Poly San Luis Obispo.

Below are some pictures of our new wind tunnel test section - Dan Gurney's old rolling road is in place (though awaiting extra 3 phase power into the lab before it's operational) and we've rebuilt around it; the new force balance is being tested as you read this; and we've acquired a stereo laser-based flow measurement system (PIV) which will allow us to measure vehicle wakes in 3-dimensions so we can see what modifications help close in the air at the rear. A dozen or so students are actively working to get all our systems up and running ASAP - as of January we have a working tunnel at least. Tesla Motors are sponsoring a project with us looking at wheel aerodynamics and real-time 3-d scanning measurement tire deformation as a pilot project we hope to extend, so we've been designing a support specifically for a full-size wheel for them (to add to the discussion we had before about wheels in the tunnel). We're also entering into a partnership with NASA Ames that will, in part, enhance our ability to play with some additional fun toys for getting the most possible data from tunnel testing.

What else is new?

We've been experimenting a lot with 3-d printing parts of wind tunnel models that can be used as modular additions to composite or aluminum models; handy when you want to look at some different fairing shapes or something like that. We're limited for size there but we've developed a nice workflow.

We've been significantly upgrading our CFD capabilities so we can crunch numbers on some serious design work; we're now running ANSYS and CD-Adapco software across hundreds of processors, allowing students to run through dozens of accurate simulations of design variants in a handful of days.

We now have Cal Poly's Formula SAE (and F-SAE Electric), Shell Ecomarathon, Human Powered Vehicle and Solar Car teams doing aero development together (and some mech/composites/elec work), this is more of a test year for all concerned but we're expecting a bumper crop in 2017 to cement a reputation as a go-to place for young talent in vehicle aerodynamics. The Solar Car team is working on the design and logistics of breaking the solar-powered FIA record in summer 2017 (in California if we can!), with some more exciting alternative energy records to follow in successive years. We've already been able to secure quite a lot of funding for that so I'm not losing sleep yet =)

---

As of mid-2016 we'll be effectively open for business. For LSR racers on a modest budget, short- and long-term sponsored projects will be extremely cost-effective as we're able to provide pre-trained students who can work on early-stage wind tunnel testing of designs, or CFD-based optimization, or both... Most of the students are able to work for academic credit too, which has been a big thing for me.

Being able to achieve a record-capable aerodynamic design from first manufacture rather than a build/race/modify/race/modify/race/modify etc. cycle is what our own students are aiming for and therefore this is the service I'd like us to be able to provide to anyone interested in partnering with us.

Graham Doig
Fluids Laboratory for Interdisciplinary Projects - www.thinkflip.net
Aerospace Engineering Department
California Polytechnic State University

Offline Dynoroom

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Re: Coming soon - California Polytechnic's Prototype Vehicle Laboratory
« Reply #13 on: December 26, 2015, 09:53:02 PM »
Looking good Graham. great progress. Thanks for the update.
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Offline fordboy628

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Re: Coming soon - California Polytechnic's Prototype Vehicle Laboratory
« Reply #14 on: December 27, 2015, 07:04:24 AM »
Wow!!

Where was this kind of hands on higher learning when I was in school??

College for me was mostly listening to the lectures of old farts (with their heads up their a**es) droning on about manufacturing for OEM's . . . . via the cut and try methodology of the 1930's.

I'm surprised I made it through.
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