Author Topic: What do you think about cost control?  (Read 35683 times)

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tom04

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What do you think about cost control?
« on: December 26, 2014, 07:13:43 PM »
Scientists tell us that “horsepower needed” is an exponential function of “speed desired.” (i.e. horsepower needed = old horsepower * (speed desired / old top speed)^cubed.)  From that, racers quickly learn that “money needed” to achieve that horsepower is an exponential function of “horsepower desired.”  (i.e.  money needed = (home equity – (current mortgage + kid’s college tuition)) * (horsepower desired / (arm + leg))^cubed).  Once big horsepower is achieved, every other component in the car must be upgraded to handle the stress – with its own exponential cost.  We can’t cry about it – that’s just the way life is. 

While planning my next build, I had a thought.  Let me start by saying that I’ve been around several different kinds of racing, and normally think that adding classes is a very bad thing.  It means diluted competition, small fields and a pretty bad show for the fans.  (See: Score offroad: 41 classes of cars and motorcycles, many with no, or only one entry; or, any local dirt track with 4-car heat races and 10-car features.)  But, LSR is different.  Having lots of classes works well for us because we are racing against records (some of which have stood for decades), not other racers.  Lots of classes also means that teams can chase multiple records with relatively small changes to the car.  The result is cooperation, civility and home-built-innovation that is absent in other forms of racing.

With that in mind, I thought about how LSR could reward innovation and yet still control the cost for those of us where the "home equity : current mortgage" ratio is still in the “growing” stage.  Most other forms of racing have successfully turned to spec engines to control cost.  (See: IMCA late models, modifies & street stock; SCORE 6100 trophy trucks; SCCA Mazda & Ford formula cars etc.; NMCA LS3 based drag racing; and a nearly endless list of others.)  This has led to a good supply of affordable, reliable and (most importantly) identical factory-built race engines. 

The GM “604” crate motor sells for $5,574.99 from Speedway Motors and makes a reliable 400 horsepower on pump gas.  The GM “602” crate motor makes 350 bullet-proof horsepower and sells for $3,649.99 including the distributor and spark plugs.  Most series require a rev limiter set at 6800RPM for the 604 and 6200RPM for the 602.  Both are 350 CI, are low compression and come sealed with tamper-proof bolts.  Neither would be good for LSR as a “C” class motor.  But, they are cheap and all the same (which is really the point of a spec motor).

So, here are my questions:
- Do you think there would be an interest in a new, sealed-spec-motor class for LSR - maybe just for lakesters & streamliners to start?
- Would you be more likely to build a new streamliner if you could challenge for a record without a car that cost more than my house?
- Do you have a car sitting in your garage that you might bring out again if you didn’t need a motor that cost more than my parent’s house (which while less than mine, was still a lot when they bought it)?
- If we assume there would be a mandatory rev limiter within the safe range, do you see any mandatory modifications necessary to use the GM 602 or 604 for LSR (these are wet-sump motors)?
- If we also assume that creating a new class is way too complicated, does anybody want to join a 604/300 challenge?  Each car puts $100 in a pot and the first GM604 spec-motor over 300MPH wins.  (We buy our own hats.)

Offline Stan Back

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Re: What do you think about cost control?
« Reply #1 on: December 26, 2014, 08:00:46 PM »
"- Do you have a car sitting in your garage that you might bring out again if you didn’t need a motor that cost more than my parent’s house (which while less than mine, was still a lot when they bought it)?"

First let me answer your questions and then make a few comments.

No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, etc.  Those are just my opinions -- and I'm an opinionated bas/tard.

Couple thoughts . . .

If you wanna win money you can always find someone (maybe even in your class) to bet with.

We have enuf classes.  If we double the car classes we may get near the total of motorcycle classes (What?  You have a green seat, then that moves you to . . .).

For example, a couple of years ago, unfortunately, there was a movement about to get all the old, non-competitive roadsters out of the garages and running again (see C/AIR class).  You know, the old Olds motors, the Cads, Studebakers, Packard V-8s.  Well, you know, they could all run in the regular C/Gas Roadster class if they wanted to.  Most of them just needed to spend a few thousands on fire systems, cages, tires, driving suits, etc.  It never happened.  But there are some entries in the class -- with BB Chevies, Panella engines and the like that fit.  Some by our most prominent teams.

You've almost grasped the whole of what LSR so intriguing.  If you want a record, do some studying and you'll find something you may see as soft to go after.  Or join the fray.  Years ago we entered the most competitive class of cars there was.  Had great success for a couple, then they passed us by.  We knew what it would take to challenge again.  We just got old and broke and now pick our fights.

Lots of ways to play the game -- just choose the one that fits.  Please don't try to alter the playing board or the rules.

Stan Back

Past (Only) Member of the San Berdoo Roadsters -- "California's Most-Exclusive Roadster Club" -- 19 Years of Bonneville and/or El Mirage Street Roadster Records

Offline Peter Jack

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Re: What do you think about cost control?
« Reply #2 on: December 26, 2014, 08:17:04 PM »
+1 Stan

Pete

Offline RichFox

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Re: What do you think about cost control?
« Reply #3 on: December 26, 2014, 08:33:00 PM »
Several years ago Jack Costalla went well over 300 with a single 4 bbl 300 inch SBC on alcohol. And i can assure you Jack does not have tons of money in his cars. Several years before that I seem to remember Vesco going over 300 with a single 4 bbl 350 on gas. I think I remember him going through the lights upside down and still over 300. So it has been done pretty much already except for the Crate motor part. I would say to you that if you want to try to build a 300 mph car with a crate motor, go for it. If you can find like minded souls to compete with you within the established SCTA rules, Have fun. No body will stop you and you don't need anyone's permission.

Offline kustombrad

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Re: What do you think about cost control?
« Reply #4 on: December 26, 2014, 08:44:54 PM »
There's spec racing that's on TV every weekend that squashes ANY kind of "original thinking" and it's for people who don't know what "real" racing is...it's called NASCAR!! Hopefully the SCTA NEVER follows the really bad lead of the France family and tries to make it a "fair" deal and passes out "participation" hats!

Offline 1leg

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Re: What do you think about cost control?
« Reply #5 on: December 26, 2014, 09:06:07 PM »
I like the idea allowing the C/AIR motor specs in other car classes similar to the vintage “X” engines. Call it XAI or something like that. I would even have a blown class but only allow GMC style blowers. Magnetos and points distributer only, no electronic engine controls. NO aftermarket blocks or Heads. Only classes that already allow “X” engines would be allowed to run “XAI” engine class.

(XAI) Cast iron V-8 engine block and heads produced before 1973 with a limit of 306-373 cid. Carburetor or mechanical fuel injection only, Gas only. Ignition limited to a single magneto or point’s style distributer only. No EFI, computer controlled ignition or electronic data collection are allowed.

(BXAI)Same as above but with a supercharger allowed. Blower limited to a 6-71 roots blower with a limit of 2 or 3 lobe rotors. I have to admit I don’t know anything about GMC blowers other then they should be allowed in vintage classes.

Not saying it should be done just that I like the idea.

Jerry
SDRC Member since 2013

As iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.
Psalm 27:17

Offline wobblywalrus

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Re: What do you think about cost control?
« Reply #6 on: December 26, 2014, 09:37:16 PM »
Race a bike.  Costs a lot less.

Offline Stainless1

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Re: What do you think about cost control?
« Reply #7 on: December 26, 2014, 09:48:46 PM »
Race a bike.  Costs a lot less.

Uhh.... yea right.... unless you want to be a record holder in a popular class...  :roll:
Stainless
Red Hat 228.039, 2001, 65ci, Bockscar Lakester #1000 with a little N2O

Offline Elmo Rodge

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Re: What do you think about cost control?
« Reply #8 on: December 26, 2014, 10:02:20 PM »
I've probably got more dollars invested in my safety equipment than my engine.  :roll: I'm not going to add it up. It doesn't matter. What am I going to do? Stop?  :roll: Wayno

Offline johnneilson

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Re: What do you think about cost control?
« Reply #9 on: December 26, 2014, 10:13:25 PM »
There's spec racing that's on TV every weekend that squashes ANY kind of "original thinking" and it's for people who don't know what "real" racing is...it's called NASCAR!! Hopefully the SCTA NEVER follows the really bad lead of the France family and tries to make it a "fair" deal and passes out "participation" hats!
X2!!

Over the years I have been involved with several different types of racing. The basis of "commie" racing is to control costs, this is a false premise to try to attract people. While this does work for a very short amount of time, it will also have a large downfall that takes other unknowing victims with it. Karting, SCCA, NASA are just a couple that have done the peak and valley.

LSR has been and will continue to be diverse and experimental. People talk about cost control, think about this, what do you do when the rules mandate that you step up to a technology or you cannot run. If I cannot afford any more than a 36hp VW, I can run it in LSR/SCTA.

BTW, the C/AIR class inception was to bring out older cars that were just hibernating. A few have shown up, but not what the promise was to be.

All the best, Happy New Year, John

As Carroll Smith wrote; All Failures are Human in Origin.

Offline 55chevr

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Re: What do you think about cost control?
« Reply #10 on: December 26, 2014, 10:19:57 PM »
IMCA land speed racing .... ?

Offline Speed Limit 1000

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Re: What do you think about cost control?
« Reply #11 on: December 27, 2014, 12:55:47 AM »
Run with the big dogs or stay on the porch :cheers:
John Gowetski, red hat @ 221.183 MPH MSA Lakester, Bockscar #1000 60 ci normally aspirated w/N20

Offline Milwaukee Midget

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Re: What do you think about cost control?
« Reply #12 on: December 27, 2014, 05:23:05 AM »
Scientists tell us that “horsepower needed” is an exponential function of “speed desired.” (i.e. horsepower needed = old horsepower * (speed desired / old top speed)^cubed.) 


So do I, but my degree is a BA, not a BS.

 :wink:

Tom, I was thinking the same thing 5 years ago. 

And then I realized, we are a tribe that insists on knitting our own uglyass sweaters.

It's all about mousetrap building.

Spec engines are fine for racers at tracks where you're trying to find out who the best driver is, but in a sport where the quick reflexes of a F1 driver are not necessarily an advantage over an experienced octogenarian with cataracts, what would be proven?  At that point, you're just joyriding.

Particularly in my case, it's not even about driving the car, it's about building it.  The only reason I have a record in my name is because it rained at Speedweek, the fellow I had slated to drive it had to go back to Australia, and I couldn't pawn the driving duties off onto someone else at World of Speed.

I've been involved in two types of racing, Bonneville and Soap Box Derby.

The Soap Box Derby had a cost cap.

When I built my soap box car in 1971, there was a limit of $35.00 placed on the total cost of construction materials, sans paint.  Wheels were provided by a "Sponsor", and they were all, allegedly, the same.

By the time you dropped the $18.00 for the 3/4 plywood, the cost of bolts, lath, body filler, fiberglass, etc., I found out, yes, it could be done.

And it looked like a $35.00 Soap Box Derby car.

And the teams who had older brothers with the Teflon insert wheels from previous years would always run faster than the new kids with the new-design slower wheels.

And most of them had better body finishing than any 1971 Camaro you would see on the lot of the event sponsor.

I suppose if you subtract from the cost of the fiberglass and body filler they sanded off the cars, they might have been able to make an argument that the cars were compliant.  And it certainly wasn't my fault I didn't have an older brother with the fast wheels.

I ran SBD for three years and never got past the first elimination round.

And if I had to do it all over again, the only thing I would do differently is find a set of those damned Teflon insert wheels.

I caught the tail end of the SVRA seminar at Indianapolis.  The idea of keeping costs low is a theme pounded on by some of the competitors. 

One argument is that by using older, vintage correct technology, the spirit of the racing will be accurate.  And we all want to relive the childhood we never had.

But the second point of the argument is that by using vintage correct pieces, the costs will be kept in check, because it's cheaper than modern technology.  To both, I say hogwash.

First off, there were ALWAYS superior cars on the track during the old days.  Your Spitfire will remain as slow off the turns as it was in 1967, and will continue to get its butt kicked by the 1971 510 that wasn't there in 1967 when the Triumph went to the regionals.

Secondly, what is happening is precisely what has happened in Europe where FIA standards for vintage correct are in place.  Junk Hewland gearboxes - an item any reasonable human being would scrap, now are demanding astronomical prices as "repairable cores".  Factory crankshafts that are turned .010 under what any serious racer would consider unsafe are being welded up and pressed back into service.  Twin gear Cooper cams with lobes indistinguishable from their base circles are having thousands of dollars in repairs spent on them.

I built a 1960's Formula Junior spec engine from an MG block for Bonneville with custom made parts for less than half of what I would have spent trying to chase down correct vintage racing parts that meet a requirement that is intended to keep costs down in vintage racing.  And had it met the authenticity check, it's likely it would not have sustained my 9500 RPM holeshot.

I could have built 3 really strong small block Chevys with off the shelf pieces for the same money, or possibly one fairly competitive NA modern, small bore liner motor. 

You can do that at Bonneville. 

I've discovered that, at least in my case, that's why I do this.

And this may sound cold, snobbish and elitist, but I've come to the conclusion that racing shouldn't be cheap.  It doesn't necessarily have to cost a lot of money, but it should take a lot of investment.  By keeping the bar high, it keeps those who probably shouldn't be racing off of the flats.



"Problems are almost always a sign of progress."  Harold Bettes
Well, I guess we're making a LOT of progress . . .  :roll:

Offline Speed Limit 1000

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Re: What do you think about cost control?
« Reply #13 on: December 27, 2014, 06:46:54 AM »
Midget,

  Very well stated. It takes TIME, EFFORT, $$$$ and help from your FRIENDS to be competitive on the salt.
For me so far it has been over 40 years, much effort, all of our credit cards and the help of the best people you could ever meet.
As far as CAPS go there are some. RED, BLUE,and BLACK. :cheers:

John
John Gowetski, red hat @ 221.183 MPH MSA Lakester, Bockscar #1000 60 ci normally aspirated w/N20

Offline sofadriver

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Re: What do you think about cost control?
« Reply #14 on: December 27, 2014, 11:08:18 AM »
The big problem would be who would manufacture and police these motors on such a limited scale.
Mike in Tacoma

"aww, what the hell - let's just do it".............

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100cc A/G, A/F and APS/G (in 2019)