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Author Topic: 2nd 100cc APS build  (Read 178817 times)

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Offline sofadriver

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Re: 2nd 100cc APS build
« Reply #285 on: July 03, 2015, 01:46:05 AM »
Finally got some internet service again.  Been down for over a month. Didn't realize how much I rely on it.

Lots of progress this last week. Mostly deciding mounting locations, adding tabs, etc. All the welding should be done tomorrow.  Might be ready to fire this weekend.  I've got a dyno appointment in 8 days so the push is on.
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Mike in Tacoma

"aww, what the hell - let's just do it".............

Bike #833
100cc A/G, A/F and APS/G (in 2019)

Offline sofadriver

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Re: 2nd 100cc APS build
« Reply #286 on: July 03, 2015, 02:01:20 AM »
OK, so this little goof-up is kinda my fault.  Never describe what you want to a welder without discussing the size of the finished work first.
These adjustable steering stops are huge!  :-o
I had to start laughing when I saw them. Definitely going to be strong enough!
They'll made good conversation starters and probably changed the weight distribution for the better.  :-D
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Mike in Tacoma

"aww, what the hell - let's just do it".............

Bike #833
100cc A/G, A/F and APS/G (in 2019)

Offline tauruck

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Re: 2nd 100cc APS build
« Reply #287 on: July 03, 2015, 02:03:37 AM »
It looks great Mike. :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:

You can't operate without the internet these days. :evil:

I'm expecting big things from you man.

That's a race machine of note.
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Offline Koncretekid

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Re: 2nd 100cc APS build
« Reply #288 on: July 03, 2015, 08:10:22 PM »
Who says those fork stops are too big?  I've seen at least one wrecked bike at Bonneville with the steering damper ripped right off the frame because the stops were not sufficient.  My fork tubes actually hit the upper frame tubes - - beat that for positive stops!
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Offline grumm441

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Re: 2nd 100cc APS build
« Reply #289 on: July 03, 2015, 10:59:49 PM »
Quote from: tauruck on July 03, 2015, 02:03:37 AM

You can't operate without the internet these days. :evil:


I get a whole lot more done without it

Nice work Mike. I like it
G
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Offline sofadriver

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Re: 2nd 100cc APS build
« Reply #290 on: July 05, 2015, 11:34:09 PM »
First start-up (and first time putting a vid on YouTube).  Much more to do but at least it's ready for the dyno next Saturday.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lRD-lEuzXM0

Learned a lot today......

-it's really easy to overfill the gas tank.
-to make the build easier I used regular nuts on all the motor mounts and should have installed the ny-lock nuts before start-up (they all fell off -  note engine moving around)
-version one of my dual hand crank starter is useless (good design - poor choice of materials)
-starting it is hard since I can't reach the throttle and kick it at the same time.
-no matter how long you kick it, it's not going to start with the handlebar kill switch off  :roll:
-I still love the smell of castor oil and race gas  :-D
« Last Edit: July 06, 2015, 12:05:44 AM by sofadriver »
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Mike in Tacoma

"aww, what the hell - let's just do it".............

Bike #833
100cc A/G, A/F and APS/G (in 2019)

Offline wobblywalrus

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Re: 2nd 100cc APS build
« Reply #291 on: July 05, 2015, 11:51:39 PM »
It looks good.  A lot of innovative engineering, for sure.
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Offline tauruck

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Re: 2nd 100cc APS build
« Reply #292 on: July 06, 2015, 10:01:04 PM »
You wanna try assembling a Harley without Loctite. :-D :-D :-D

You're right about the smell of castor oil and race gas. :cheers: :cheers:

The other stuff is small potatoes. To be expected. You've aced the difficult stuff and that's what counts.

BTW, I like the stinger.
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Offline sofadriver

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Re: 2nd 100cc APS build
« Reply #293 on: July 12, 2015, 02:35:02 AM »
Got the bike on the dyno today.  I expected a lot more power.  Despite some big mods it didn't make much more than the first motor.  21rwhp. That's on a DynoJet and I don't know the manufacturer of the dyno the first engine ran on.   It was still pulling hard at 14000rpm, though.  That's a big improvement.  I can't complain too much.  That's comparable to a 1000cc carbureted, unblown sport bike making 210rwhp.  I guess there are limits.  I've gone back to a regular water pump (had an electric pump before but didn't trust it) and that's draining a little power.  On the other hand, after the longest pull the head was still only warm and EGT went to 1150 degrees and stayed there.  I'll settle for a little less power than expected and an un-fried motor, thank you.

With 17/35 sprockets it ran 152mph but with so little power I'll never be able to pull those gears on the salt.  I'll try a 16t front sprocket and see how it does.

There's a big dip in power at about 11000rpm.  It loses about 10% but then rebounds and holds steady thru 14k.  I'm going to send a copy of the printouts off to Lectron Carbs for their advice.  I doubt it's going to rebound like that on the salt.

I wish decibels were horsepower.  Holy cow!!  :-o
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Mike in Tacoma

"aww, what the hell - let's just do it".............

Bike #833
100cc A/G, A/F and APS/G (in 2019)

Offline fordboy628

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Re: 2nd 100cc APS build
« Reply #294 on: July 12, 2015, 08:46:31 AM »
Quote from: sofadriver on July 12, 2015, 02:35:02 AM
Got the bike on the dyno today.  I expected a lot more power.  Despite some big mods it didn't make much more than the first motor.  21rwhp. That's on a DynoJet and I don't know the manufacturer of the dyno the first engine ran on.   It was still pulling hard at 14000rpm, though.  That's a big improvement.  I can't complain too much.  That's comparable to a 1000cc carbureted, unblown sport bike making 210rwhp.  I guess there are limits.  I've gone back to a regular water pump (had an electric pump before but didn't trust it) and that's draining a little power.  On the other hand, after the longest pull the head was still only warm and EGT went to 1150 degrees and stayed there.  I'll settle for a little less power than expected and an un-fried motor, thank you.

With 17/35 sprockets it ran 152mph but with so little power I'll never be able to pull those gears on the salt.  I'll try a 16t front sprocket and see how it does.

There's a big dip in power at about 11000rpm.  It loses about 10% but then rebounds and holds steady thru 14k.  I'm going to send a copy of the printouts off to Lectron Carbs for their advice.  I doubt it's going to rebound like that on the salt.

I wish decibels were horsepower.  Holy cow!!  :-o

In 2013 the Milwaukee Midget had a 1/2 hp dip in the bhp curve just before anticipated peak speed rpm, ~7800/7900.   It was fine in 1st, 2nd, and 3rd, but it would not pull out of the "dip" in 4th, limiting the top speed by 3/4 mph we guesstimate.   We worked hard to add a few bhp overall and get the "dip" out for 2014.    (2 days on the dyno . . . .)    Worked out well in the end . . . . .  :-D as the engine would "pull" past the previous "stall" rpm.    All those "little details" matter.

When power available = the total drag, you are done, and that is the top speed for that setup.   There is a lack of power to accelerate the vehicle further.

Less power, un-fried motor, . . . . . . .  always a wise choice in my world . . . . . . . .
 :cheers:
Fordboy
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Offline Rex Schimmer

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Re: 2nd 100cc APS build
« Reply #295 on: July 12, 2015, 05:37:41 PM »
Mike,
Have you ever thought of using a Helmholtz resonator tuned to your 11000 rpm engine speed to fill the HP drop at that rpm? I am sure that you, being a two stroke guy, remember the mid 80 Yamaha YZ dirt bikes all carried a "boost bottle" that was used to help fill in the the HP curve. They are pretty straight forward and being tuned for 11000 rpm (11 kilohertz) would not be very large, the size of the connecting tube between the resonator and the intake tract is part of the calculation, but it would be pretty simple to make one that you could vary the volume of that would enable you to exactly tune it to your desired rpm. The Helmholtz resonator concept is what make the air boxes of many of the late model Japanese performance bikes so effective.

Rex
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Offline sofadriver

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Re: 2nd 100cc APS build
« Reply #296 on: July 14, 2015, 01:05:11 AM »
Good idea, Rex, but too late in the game to try it now.
I think I've found the problem.  Lectrons use a flat sided fuel needle that allows fuel to climb up the back side of the needle.  My needle was turned about 45 degrees to one side.  That correction will probably make it richer but the dyno budget is now at zero so I'll never know for sure if that was it.  Lectron told me to shorten the intake as much as I could, too, so I shortened it all I could (about 3/16")

You can see the problem starting at about 12000rpm below. (shown by the arrows on the bottom pic)
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Mike in Tacoma

"aww, what the hell - let's just do it".............

Bike #833
100cc A/G, A/F and APS/G (in 2019)

Offline wobblywalrus

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Re: 2nd 100cc APS build
« Reply #297 on: July 14, 2015, 01:25:56 AM »
Do you have a reed valve?
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Offline Marcroux

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Re: 2nd 100cc APS build
« Reply #298 on: July 14, 2015, 01:29:39 AM »
Mike,
Have you ever thought of using a Helmholtz resonator tuned to your 11000 rpm engine speed to fill the HP drop at that rpm? I am sure that you, being a two stroke guy, remember the mid 80 Yamaha YZ dirt bikes all carried a "boost bottle" that was used to help fill in the the HP curve. They are pretty straight forward and being tuned for 11000 rpm (11 kilohertz) would not be very large, the size of the connecting tube between the resonator and the intake tract is part of the calculation, but it would be pretty simple to make one that you could vary the volume of that would enable you to exactly tune it to your desired rpm. The Helmholtz resonator concept is what make the air boxes of many of the late model Japanese performance bikes so effective.

Rex
 
One mistake with this statement an engine running 11000 rpm is turning at 183 Hertz. Hertz are cycles per second.

Marc
 

 
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Offline tauruck

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Re: 2nd 100cc APS build
« Reply #299 on: July 14, 2015, 03:56:36 AM »
Mike, don't laugh.
Short story. I was running a kid in a 125cc shifter kart and he was blowing everyone away even though being a rookie.
A current SA champ's father in another class asked what my secret was. I joked it was the Royal Purple 2 stroke oil. I'd always used RP.
The guy bought a case from me and took his kid's kart to the dyno. They did back to back tests and similar to your graphs the RP test leveled out at high RPM where the other oil dropped off. Cheap solution, try the Royal Purple. Not sure what you'll gain but you won't lose anything. :cheers:

Don't ask me why and how the Royal Purple works but it does. That other kid is Wesleigh Orr, 4 time ROK world champion.
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