Author Topic: Spins on the flats  (Read 40347 times)

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Offline Dynoroom

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Re: Spins on the flats
« Reply #15 on: December 11, 2014, 05:58:22 PM »
This subject should bring out lots of opinions, examples, beliefs, and maybe even some humor....   :-D

The subject of rear wheel drive type (locked, open, or limited slip) might have to do with the vehicle it's installed in.

Example: a roadster vs a streamliner. The roadsters wheels are much further apart than a streamliner. So if the roadster has a locked rear & runs through a spot of soft salt or dirt it MAY have a tendency to rotate around the tire that has lost some amount of traction. Where as the streamliner most likely will drive through this spot with both tires as they are much closer together. Now if the roadster has an open rear it may drive through this same soft spot and is less apt to try and rotate as the wheels are not locked together.
But after years of watching different race cars on the salt & dirt one thing I do know, I don't know why some cars spin more than others. But I am inclined to agree with Glen, drive input has something to do with it. Ask guys who spin at El Mirage & you'll get "I hung with it to long" or "it happened before I knew it" type answers a lot of the time.

Carry on...
Michael LeFevers
Kugel and LeFevers Pontiac Firebird

Without Data You're Just Another Guy With An Opinion!

Racing is just a series of "Problem Solving" events that allow you to spend money & make noise...

Offline tortoise

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Re: Spins on the flats
« Reply #16 on: December 11, 2014, 06:00:42 PM »
The stiffer the sway bar (and the frame) the less preload needed; a good thing, since the car needs to go straight with a range of torque inputs. They sell VERY stiff sway bars for drag cars.

Offline Peter Jack

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Re: Spins on the flats
« Reply #17 on: December 11, 2014, 06:15:44 PM »
Just out of curiosity Pete, why would you run an open diff?

Just to see for sure which wheel would have traction and which wheel would spin. I think I know. I think the result would be the same whether it's a quick change or a conventional rear end. An open rear end would just emphasize the result.

Pete

Offline Ron Gibson

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Re: Spins on the flats
« Reply #18 on: December 11, 2014, 06:50:33 PM »
I agree with Pete. If you consider the tires,axles,gears are all resistance to turning by the driveshaft. As the driveshaft is trying to turn against this resistance, regardless of all the gears,  and which way they turn,  it is loading the left wheel (rear wheel drive non IRS)
The rear end in my roadster is mounted solid, but i can see torque lightening the right side to cause issues. It has spun several times before I got it and I intend to add weight to the right side.

of course YMMV
Ron
Life is an abrasive. Whether you get ground away or polished to a shine depends on what you are made of.

Offline Stan Back

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Re: Spins on the flats
« Reply #19 on: December 11, 2014, 06:59:18 PM »
A short pitman arm is cheap insurance.

(And no, that doesn't count when you break traction at 180 with a 35 MPH crosswind.)
Past (Only) Member of the San Berdoo Roadsters -- "California's Most-Exclusive Roadster Club" -- 19 Years of Bonneville and/or El Mirage Street Roadster Records

Offline manta22

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Re: Spins on the flats
« Reply #20 on: December 11, 2014, 07:12:18 PM »
This all applies to a live rear axle. If a rear differential is driven through a torque tube, the engine torque does not cause weight shifting from one wheel to the other since the engine and differential are connected solidly together by the torque tube. Ditto for a car running a transaxle.

These effects may or may not overshadow the open/locked rear end question.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ

Offline kustombrad

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Re: Spins on the flats
« Reply #21 on: December 11, 2014, 07:29:13 PM »
 I do know the 180 degree power turn does the exact opposite with the nose of the quick change. It actually shoves the nose down. This I know from a friend who put one in a sand dragster to keep it from doing wheelies the full 100 yds. Yes, it worked drastically!

Offline 836dstr

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Re: Spins on the flats
« Reply #22 on: December 11, 2014, 07:57:31 PM »
I certainly agree with comments by Stan and Glen. I had one spin that was caused by a crosswind just past the "2" at about 170 MPH pushing the Roadster to the left. A very small correction resulted in a very interesting circular sight seeing tour.

Slowed down the steering and never had a problem again. ( Too much horsepower and wheelspin was never my problem.)

Tom

Offline Peter Jack

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Re: Spins on the flats
« Reply #23 on: December 11, 2014, 08:15:05 PM »
Brad, 2 PMs sent.

Pete


Offline Buickguy3

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Re: Spins on the flats
« Reply #25 on: December 11, 2014, 10:02:40 PM »
   And we haven't even gotten to the Detroit Tru-Trac [Gleason-Torsen] gear type differentials yet. Essentially an open differential transferring torque to the wheel with less traction to keep things going straight.
     This is making my head spin. I think I'll have another beer.  :-P
   Doug  :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
I keep going faster and faster and I don't know why. All I have to do is live and die.
                   [America]

Offline Peter Jack

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Re: Spins on the flats
« Reply #26 on: December 12, 2014, 12:02:09 AM »
Sent you one more Brad. I'll now sit back and observe for a while.  :roll: :roll: :-D

Pete

Offline JimL

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Re: Spins on the flats
« Reply #27 on: December 12, 2014, 12:04:27 AM »
One of the interesting things to ponder is the effect of actual torque inputs against the salt, at speed.  Most of us who've run a roadster out there have experienced the sideways slips that are hard enough to bang your helmet in the cage.

I was thinking about tire slip angles, when that happens, and how far the car is traveling per combustion event.  A V8 running 7200 rpm at 200 mph, straight thru high gear and 3:1 axle with 28" tires....is traveling more than 7" per combustion event.  Thats over 2 feet per crankshaft revolution.

Our 4 cyl roadster was running about 5700 rpm at 175 on 28" tires....anyway, its over 2.6 feet over the ground per crankshaft revolution.  It never quite got away, but there were a few thrills.

I dont think anyone has much luck catching the car once the slip angle gets very far while power is on.  Those widely spaced power inputs are more like a skip than a slide, and a spin would sure be easy.  You can travel alot of distance on not that many crankshaft rotations.  Especially with a heavy flywheel, which wont prevent tire slip when the tires are out of line with direction of travel.

The other interesting thing is how far the tires slip during each power event.  In 2004 I was measuring the blister spacing and length on the Buckeye Bullet after a near 300 mph run.  Doing the math from motor rpm (3-phase electric), I found the blisters were exactly the spacing of armature torque inputs for the gearing they used.  Those blisters were pretty short, maybe about 3" long.  My best guess (just guessing) is that they were transitioning to square wave 3-phase at some higher motor rpm.  We did the same thing on the Prius that year, at about 93 mph.  Torque takes a jump for a while, with that method, but it makes for pretty hard, short hits.

Really odd to consider, isnt it?  Of course....Probably doesnt mean a thing, but it makes you wonder if its part of the mix.

P.S. Edit..... I was thinking about that getting banged around, and it only happened in cross winds.  The worst ride I remember was a return run when they came down the line giving everyone the option of waiting a while if they didnt trust the wind.  The thing I remember was that it didnt feel so much like a slide, as some banging back and forth.  Anyone else had that?
« Last Edit: December 12, 2014, 12:23:59 AM by JimL »

Offline manta22

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Re: Spins on the flats
« Reply #28 on: December 12, 2014, 12:26:06 AM »
JimL;

Not to be too nit-picky but tire "slip angle" is a term used to describe the difference in the angle between the tire contact patch and the angle  of the wheel. In other words- how much the tire is twisted between the wheel and the pavement when going around a corner at high speed.

I think you meant something other than this-- "torque angle" maybe? (my made- up word  :-) )

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ

Offline JimL

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Re: Spins on the flats
« Reply #29 on: December 12, 2014, 12:50:47 AM »
Yes, that sounds better.

  I would think we'd also have actual slip angle with these tall, thin, sidewalls.  Thinking about my bike, which is a V-twin, it also tends to jerk a bit in side winds if I try to stay on the throttle.  I dont think I could have slip angle problems with these BT003 Race.  They are sure stiff.

Like I said, maybe means nothing....I dont really know.  :|