Author Topic: EFI Injector signal,,  (Read 6456 times)

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Offline stay`tee

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EFI Injector signal,,
« on: December 09, 2014, 04:13:14 PM »
at what degree of crankshaft rotation is the fuel injector trigged?, (one injector per cylinder), im thinking it will be in the 70-40btdc range, or is it on intake valve opening?,,
First Australian to ride a motorcycle over 200mph at Bonneville,,,

Offline Stainless1

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Re: EFI Injector signal,,
« Reply #1 on: December 10, 2014, 12:15:49 AM »
That depends on RPM... I believe the injector at 10000 has to trigger hundreds of degrees  prior to the valve opening.... fuel travel time...
Stainless
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Offline stay`tee

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Re: EFI Injector signal,,
« Reply #2 on: December 10, 2014, 03:47:08 PM »
"hundreds of degrees" :?, 'bout when the exhaust cam begins to open, dont think so, :roll:,,
First Australian to ride a motorcycle over 200mph at Bonneville,,,

Offline Sumner

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Re: EFI Injector signal,,
« Reply #3 on: December 10, 2014, 04:45:32 PM »
You often read that you don't want to run the injector at more than an 80% duty cycle.  That would be 576 degrees, so Stainless is right.  I'm sure some have gone over the 80% as it looks like some can survive for some period over the 80% figure...

http://www.howrah.org/fuel-injector.html

.... but still not your best deal.  Just because the intake isn't open doesn't mean there can't be fuel going into the runner.  Some ECU's can handle sequential firing and fire pretty much like you are saying when the valve is open but that is usually only at lower rpm's.  As the rpm's increase and the time decreases they might then go into batch mode where they fire one batch or another regardless of if the intake is open or not at the time of firing.  A number operate in batch mode regardless of the rpm.  Lots of options,

Sumner
« Last Edit: December 10, 2014, 04:53:47 PM by Sumner »

Offline Stan Back

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Re: EFI Injector signal,,
« Reply #4 on: December 10, 2014, 07:17:30 PM »
Our Hilborns seem to be triggered by how many times and in what time period the crank is hopefully going around.  Seven records (but none lately).  Must be a message here somewhere.
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Offline kiwi belly tank

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Re: EFI Injector signal,,
« Reply #5 on: December 10, 2014, 08:21:48 PM »
Stan is old school, his signal is when somebody kicks the chair. :-D
  Sid.

Offline Stainless1

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Re: EFI Injector signal,,
« Reply #6 on: December 10, 2014, 10:39:55 PM »
I think before this topic goes to hell in a handbasket I will suggest reading this at the Motec site
http://www.motec.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=39&t=769

 :cheers:
Stainless
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Offline stay`tee

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Re: EFI Injector signal,,
« Reply #7 on: December 11, 2014, 04:33:50 AM »
"hundreds of degrees" :?, 'bout when the exhaust cam begins to open, dont think so, :roll:,,

ok, before i read what has been posted since i wrote this, i wish to apoligize to Stainless for infering that the fresh intake charge would be lost out the exhaust,,  at 200degrees the exhaust valve would be opening, but, the intake valve would still be firmly closed thuss containing the fresh charge, its the injector thats shootin of earlier, not the valve as i eluded too,, :-( :-),,,

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Offline stay`tee

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Re: EFI Injector signal,,
« Reply #8 on: December 11, 2014, 05:43:16 AM »
the reason i asked was to try and get a handle on injection activation and its relationship with inlet cam timing,, the Motec article gives a very good insight (and more) into this, thankyou for posting the link,  :cheers:
First Australian to ride a motorcycle over 200mph at Bonneville,,,

Offline RidgeRunner

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Re: EFI Injector signal,,
« Reply #9 on: December 11, 2014, 06:31:37 AM »
".......... the Motec article gives a very good insight (and more) into this, thank you for posting the link,"  :cheers:



     A big +1.  A VERY interesting read.

                      Ed

Offline RansomT

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Re: EFI Injector signal,,
« Reply #10 on: December 11, 2014, 09:45:46 AM »
That is a good read.  I knew most of the info, but not put in an explainable read.  Something that wasn't mentioned directly, any duty cycle at or above 91% results in an injector just going static (sprays all the time).  Danger zone is round 89%, the injector can just turn on OR turn off OR sputter....not good.

Offline wobblywalrus

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Re: EFI Injector signal,,
« Reply #11 on: December 11, 2014, 11:16:14 AM »
There is a big article on drag racing in Britain in the issue of Classic Bike Guide we have on the racks in the US.  The Hobbit is one of the quickest bikes in England.  It says ""The heads have been considerably reworked for larger ports with 80% of the fuel fed through the SU carbs - but 20% injected directly into the heads.  Its the injection system that allows you to balance the fueling."

Maybe carbs could be used to reduce the load on those injectors and to bring the duty cycle down to a reasonable level. 

Offline RansomT

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Re: EFI Injector signal,,
« Reply #12 on: December 11, 2014, 12:57:12 PM »
I bet they are using them like a power valve...and you could adjust on the fly based on atmospheric conditions or different fuel types...pretty good thinking.

Offline Sumner

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Re: EFI Injector signal,,
« Reply #13 on: December 11, 2014, 01:45:07 PM »
...Maybe carbs could be used to reduce the load on those injectors and to bring the duty cycle down to a reasonable level. 

They do sell big ones....but of course expensive. 

Others run more than one injector per runner.  Some run one injector with the stock ecu and then the second set with something like MegaSquirt or any other number of controllers out there that can fire the second set when the demand is there.

We have so many options today to choose from,

Sumner

Offline NathanStewart

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Re: EFI Injector signal,,
« Reply #14 on: December 11, 2014, 04:12:42 PM »
Here are a couple tid bits I've learned over the years.

If wanting to "time" the injection event to occur while the int valve is open, it should start roughly around TDC exhaust which is 360° before TDC compression.  TDC exhaust is where the intake valve starts to open.  This is usually where I start and then tune from there.

It's usually not possible to completely deliver the required fuel to support a certain AFR under high load/rpm while the int valve is open.  The amount of time that the int valve is actually open is something like 60% of total cycle time (depends on cam specs) and as we know it, many or most injectors are driven beyond 60% duty cycle unless running very high flowing injectors.  This is why injection timing in high load/rpm states is kinda useless - because the injectors are open longer than the intake valve is. 

Most OEM's size their injectors to go static at high load/rpm.  I've tested tons of stock cars and all of them go beyond the 85% injector duty "danger zone" that everyone is so afraid of.  They do this because it's much easier to get precise control for emissions on small injectors that have good control resolution.  Injectors tend to act weird at low pulse widths (<1.5ms or so) and become non-linear and can actually deliver more fuel at smaller pulse widths.  To combat this, the OE's size the injectors to run above 2ms or so at idle and be just big enough to provide enough fuel to support the engines rated power.

Tuning injection timing can net better off idle driveability and emissions but it doesn't mean squat for WOT performance.  Most aftermarket engine management systems allow you to globally offset the injection start or end points and if you were to do so and do a bunch of WOT testing, you'd probably find that where the injection event occurs makes little difference on power output. 

   
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