Author Topic: Post Machining Crankshaft Options  (Read 4309 times)

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Offline jlmccuan

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Post Machining Crankshaft Options
« on: November 07, 2014, 10:32:43 PM »
What are the options for working with a crankshaft with less than stellar bearing overlap? Throwing it out and starting over aren't really an option as it has some historical value.  Are there any metal treatments that would improve the strength?
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Offline Peter Jack

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Re: Post Machining Crankshaft Options
« Reply #1 on: November 07, 2014, 11:43:04 PM »
What material and process was used to manufacture the crank? The choices are probably cast iron, forged steel or billet steel. I doubt that there's any practical method of adding strength to the basic structure of the crank but there are certainly ways of surface treating and hardening.

Pete

Offline Milwaukee Midget

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Re: Post Machining Crankshaft Options
« Reply #2 on: November 07, 2014, 11:43:39 PM »
Here's my take on this - don't romanticize engine components.

Realistically, if it has "historical value", then it probably shouldn't be used for racing. 

I take it you're talking journal overlap on a crank that's had the journals turned down?

I had a similar situation arise with the Midget. 

After I ordered up a custom billet piece, I found a factory experimental Formula Junior inline short stroke BMC A series crank on E-bay.

I doubt if thirty or forty of them were ever produced - truly a rare factory racing item.

I didn't bid on it, but I kept thinking, what a neat idea for the Midget - a limited production, factory forging just perfect for my application.

After lamenting over it, I shared my pondering with a fellow racer, who put me straight.  The piece I had on order was a far superior item and a known quantity that raised fewer questions and doubts than any vintage specialty piece I had my heart set on.  Practicality ruled the day, I ran the billet piece as planned, and had no doubts as to its durability.

The moral of the story is this - It's easy to romanticize the uber-rare and unique racing components of historical value.  The "wow" and "cool" factors are always there.  But if you want to race, go with the pieces that you don't need to worry about, the best pieces you can afford, and save the historically significant pieces for the Concourse de Elegance.

If it is historically significant, find the right buyer who's doing a 100 point restoration, sell it to them, and use the money to buy the piece that will get you down the salt without leaving an oil slick or sending you home with a windowed block. 

"Problems are almost always a sign of progress."  Harold Bettes
Well, I guess we're making a LOT of progress . . .  :roll:

Offline Peter Jack

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Re: Post Machining Crankshaft Options
« Reply #3 on: November 07, 2014, 11:49:37 PM »
I totally agree with Chris. He basically cut through the BS and gave you the answer I should have.  :-D :-D :-D

Pete

Offline Jack Gifford

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Re: Post Machining Crankshaft Options
« Reply #4 on: November 08, 2014, 12:49:55 AM »
To simply try to answer the question (although I totally agree with Midget's view): Some people claim that cryogenic treatment of highly-stressed engine components can improve their durability/reliability.
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Offline wobblywalrus

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Re: Post Machining Crankshaft Options
« Reply #5 on: November 08, 2014, 08:53:22 PM »
Not sure about cranks, but new stuff is not always good.  Sometimes the best thing is to send the crank to an expert on the subject and get their opinion about its condition and rehab/replacement options.

Offline fordboy628

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Re: Post Machining Crankshaft Options
« Reply #6 on: November 09, 2014, 09:28:19 AM »
Here's my take on this - don't romanticize engine components.

Realistically, if it has "historical value", then it probably shouldn't be used for racing. 

I take it you're talking journal overlap on a crank that's had the journals turned down?

I had a similar situation arise with the Midget. 

After I ordered up a custom billet piece, I found a factory experimental Formula Junior inline short stroke BMC A series crank on E-bay.

I doubt if thirty or forty of them were ever produced - truly a rare factory racing item.

I didn't bid on it, but I kept thinking, what a neat idea for the Midget - a limited production, factory forging just perfect for my application.

After lamenting over it, I shared my pondering with a fellow racer, who put me straight.  The piece I had on order was a far superior item and a known quantity that raised fewer questions and doubts than any vintage specialty piece I had my heart set on.  Practicality ruled the day, I ran the billet piece as planned, and had no doubts as to its durability.

The moral of the story is this - It's easy to romanticize the uber-rare and unique racing components of historical value.  The "wow" and "cool" factors are always there.  But if you want to race, go with the pieces that you don't need to worry about, the best pieces you can afford, and save the historically significant pieces for the Concourse de Elegance.

If it is historically significant, find the right buyer who's doing a 100 point restoration, sell it to them, and use the money to buy the piece that will get you down the salt without leaving an oil slick or sending you home with a windowed block. 



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Offline manta22

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Re: Post Machining Crankshaft Options
« Reply #7 on: November 09, 2014, 10:48:18 AM »
Getting back to the original question-- having the crank nitride is helpful. So is having it shot- peened but the bearing journals have to be carefully masked.

I've often wondered why no one has adapted a process that is used in processing silicon wafers in the semiconductor industry-- the application of a "diamond- like" carbon coating to bearing surfaces.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ

Offline Milwaukee Midget

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Re: Post Machining Crankshaft Options
« Reply #8 on: November 09, 2014, 12:31:54 PM »

I've often wondered why no one has adapted a process that is used in processing silicon wafers in the semiconductor industry-- the application of a "diamond- like" carbon coating to bearing surfaces.


If it's viable for a crank, I'd bet it's been tried - nothing much gets past the F1 and NASCAR guys these days.

Getting back to the issue at hand, is there a reason you really need to use this particular crank?  Was it undercut, or just a bad design?  The least expensive piece is always the piece you own, but how bad is the overlap issue? 

If it's a weld-up that needs to be done, that may help as well, but at that point, additional machining, straightening and nitriding adds up, and replacement cost might bring it down to a horse-a-piece.
"Problems are almost always a sign of progress."  Harold Bettes
Well, I guess we're making a LOT of progress . . .  :roll:

Offline RichFox

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Re: Post Machining Crankshaft Options
« Reply #9 on: November 09, 2014, 12:40:37 PM »
If you are working with something like a '26 Dodge Bros. crank or a '32 Plymouth, overlap is pretty much fixed and not good. You can increase the rod journal diameter somewhat. I had the rods made to 2 inch Chevy size. But that has it's drawbacks also. Mains aren't going to get much bigger. A really sturdy main support should at least hold down some of the flexing. So I really have no good idea on this.

Offline jlmccuan

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Re: Post Machining Crankshaft Options
« Reply #10 on: November 09, 2014, 06:26:16 PM »
I've got 0.050" overlap with 0.100" radius fillet.  Forged crank.  Piston guided rods. Should be under 6000 rpm.
« Last Edit: November 09, 2014, 08:33:30 PM by jlmccuan »
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