Motorcycle rules history info

[**RP**]

I am interested in hearing the history behind the motorcycle sanctions at Bonneville.  I thought AMA rules were used back in the 60's at the SCTA Speedweek events for the bike classes, right?  When did SCTA rules for the bike start and did they copy the AMA rules from the past.  When the BUB events started did they copy the SCTA rules for their AMA rules?   

[RidgeRunner]

      M/C's were still running under AMA rules, classes, and sanction at Speedweek in '71 and '72.  Sometime after that ['77-'78 or so?] there was a parting of the ways between SCTA-BNI and the AMA.  I know at least 1 set of displacement [600cc] classes got dropped around the same time, not sure about any others, rule changes, or exactly why everything  came about.

      I'm also interested in any details, whys, and whens that anyone knows about.

                                      Ed

[TrickyDicky]

Apologies for going slightly off-topic, although this does fit the title.

The FIM web site states:

World Records established between the beginning of the 20th century and 1979 are considered as permanent historical records. They cannot be considered as “beaten” nowadays since the measuring devices used as well as the rules have changed since then.

Presumably there were some major changes in the FIM world in 1979. Can anyone summarise what happened?

Is there a list of the FIM records as they stood in 1979, i.e. the ones that cannot be beaten?

[JimL]

Not many of us still riding that ran the old AMA rules and current SCTA rules.  I seem to recall an 883 class, and even some 200 class records.  

Engine classes were a tricky business, because C engines were a production based engine with internal mods allowed, but external was sometimes flexible (sorta).  For instance, my CB450 had to run the stock carb bodies (even though Keihin substitutes had been allowed on 450s (by AMA) at Daytona in '67 and '68).  I was, however, allowed to use the exact megaphone system used by Ed Lyons for the Daytona Amateur win in '68.  There was about a year of letter writing to get my '69 C class engine defined before the event (which worked well and put 20 on the previous APS-C 500 record).

That engine had a constant running kick start idler, known for seizing at speed.  It also had a reputation for pitching starter chains through the front of the case when run at continuous 12,000 rpm.  For those reasons, Earl Flanders allowed me to run without any starters (tow started off the door handle of a '67 Chevy van...strong door handles in those days!)

If a manufacturer catalogued race engine parts for C class, we were definitely allowed to use them.  Honda wasnt too good about doing that for privateers.  There was a CB750-4 that ran that year, with the exact megaphones that showed up on the 1970 Daytona bikes (and I dont know what else but it was pretty fast and looked almost stock).  Honda had secretly listed the performance parts in the Master Price Guide, but not in any parts manuals.  That Price Guide parts listing apparently satisfied AMA in those years.

AG or AF engine classes were just like G and F are today.  I ran the bike in A unstreamlined as an AG engine, and no eyebrows raised even though it was effectively a C engine with an extra non-stock crankcase vent tube tapped into the left case.

Clear as mud, dont you think?  Things are much better defined and managed these days.  I bet there's a hundred different stories about how the AMA rules were handled for different folks, back then!

PS. Strangely enough, that bike is now (again) legal for AMA (in Classic engine categories).  Its on the shelf, over the workbench, whispering in my ear as I struggle trying to salvage one more pushrod engine for my orange bike to run again.  ....some real weird karma in the shop, these days, and the years keep slippin' away.

[joea]

Jim thank you very much for passing on some history on this

Joe

[Stan Back]

I think those guys moved on to write the NHRA Pro "Stock" Motorcycle rules.

[**RP**]

Maybe, but Vance & Hines writes the NHRA PSM rules now!

[Dean Los Angeles]

Yep, 200cc class. I hold one of those "permanent" records.

[4-barrel Mike]

Didn't Jack Dolan have a (major?) part in the changeover?  I seem to remember him saying something about it on this site. 

Try clicking on the magnifying glass to the left of the search box (above) and instead of "*" in the "by user: " box, type jackd and then your choice of search term(s): ama, motorcycle, etc.  If you try it, expect many extraneous hits; Jack had a lot to say about many things.   

Mike

[**RP**]

Jack ripped me a new one on my very first post on this site.  I used the search feature and found a ton of his posts about the rules....and other things.  Nice feature. 

Jack would be the authority on this thread subject for sure.  Hopefully some others that competed through the decades of sanctioning body changes will chime in. 

[Malcolm UK]

The FIM froze records when they chose to redefine cycle cars and then the method of calculating the average speed of two passes within two hours. I would imagine the list if it exists is held at FIM headquarters, only the current records appear on the website. The FIM do now embrace the three classifications which the SCTA have been using to differentiate between wheel driven two wheelers, for their building regulations. The old BUB website has been a good link to the relevant FIM documents. Now we all seem to await some comment on AMA and SCTA divergence. We do miss Jack D (RIP).

[bak189]

Yep, I was there for the change over from AMA to SCTA....( first ran a M/C on the salt in 1954).....I will not get into the politics of it all.....but will say that the late great Jack Dolan was the man who understood what M/C landspeed racing was all about and wrote the rules accordingly.....to the point (we used to have minimums for record) that you would tell him what you did to the bike and he would tell you how fast it would run, so he could set the minimums

[JimL]

Here is a link to an advertisement.  You can scroll on the page and read results in 1971.

Interesting....there was a 200 class, 600 class, a 700 class, a 750 class, an 883 class....along with the other classes we still have.  Some familiar names in there.

http://books.google.com/books?id=e_YDAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA34&lpg=PA34&dq=ralph+hudson+bonneville&source=bl&ots=BikPgRcud0&sig=KPzfsn2WRx0khluV9LdYyoaNZV4&hl=en&sa=X&ei=8lhcVIfsN9CxogSO2YDQBQ&ved=0CBwQ6AEwADgK#v=onepage&q=ralph%20hudson%20bonneville&f=false

[**RP**]

Cool to see the 1971 AMA record info........ they listed all the records set, some classes were set 3 times by 3 different bikes.  Looks like there were some battles between the rival Honda and Triumph Dealers out of Detroit .

It also listed the different class and engine categories at the end of the article....no production or modified frame listed, just C.   So did SCTA start the P and M frame classes in the late 70's?   

[JimL]

Chassis classes:  C was an unstreamlined production frame, where PS was a C with partial streamlining.  There was no M, just A or APS.

Note that in 1969 there was a 650 class size, as well as a 1200 class size in addition to what you saw on the 1971 results.  Very confusing!

Note the Bonanza record.  Yes...it was a Bonanza minibike with a stretched frame using a "go-kart A class" (6.1 inch) engine!  Perhaps someone remembers for sure; I think it was a West Bend "bushing class" engine.

For comparison, here is a scan of the 1969 record results.  My old magazine is in pretty bad shape....stored in attics and basements through a lifetime.  I look pretty pretty much like "lifetime of attics and basements" myself. 

This was the Cycle issue with Doc Freud's beautiful cover shot.  He probably remembers more about this stuff than any of us, you know.

JimL (James Leininger, Honda)