Author Topic: Rule change for headlamps in production classes  (Read 12260 times)

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Offline Stan Back

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Re: Rule change for headlamps in production classes
« Reply #15 on: August 27, 2014, 06:45:39 PM »
There are a lot of classes that require headlights besides Production and GT.  If a rule is to be made (and I agree that safety is really not the biggest concern), it should encompass and clarify headlight requirements for all "street" classes.

Being operational should not be of concern, in my meager opinion.  It has nothing to do with the performance capability of a vehicle whether the turn signals work.
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Offline Milwaukee Midget

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Re: Rule change for headlamps in production classes
« Reply #16 on: August 27, 2014, 07:12:33 PM »
There is no requirement of functionality.

Same goes for horns.
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Offline JimL

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Re: Rule change for headlamps in production classes
« Reply #17 on: August 27, 2014, 10:19:12 PM »
Two thoughts:

1.  We have more injuries in the pits, than we do on the course.  And.....Remembering a friend nearly dying after helping push a '51 Chevy pickup backward one winter day, I wonder why we still mess with these glass sealed beams.  The lens caved in, cutting all the arteries and tendons in his left wrist.  It was a very close call to get him to a hospital fast enough.  Dumb mistake, I know, but a taped up sealed beam wont protect in a similar event.  I have seen people in the pits push on the taped up lamp, not wanting to put finger prints on the car.  Open pits and helpful spectators....puts my heart in my throat, every time.

2.  Taping up the lens of a sealed beam is only half the job.  The back/reflector is as bad, or worse, when its broken and scattered in a crash.  Asking everyone to remove their headlamps, to check the tape on the back of the lamp, is an inspection process we dont want.

Flat aluminum or lexan plate insert for glass headlamps....car or bike, would be simple and safe.  Easy to inspect and hard to dispute.  It could be the default for entrants who could not obtain or afford exact profile substitute parts.  With older vintage production class bikes finding their way to the salt, this could be helpful.

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Offline edinlr

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Re: Rule change for headlamps in production classes
« Reply #18 on: August 27, 2014, 10:57:26 PM »
Jim, as you know, my tall and wide body could not be offset by the best NASA designed headlight on my motorcycle.  With that said, I am thinking safety first, but not at too much cost.  Have people double or triple tape their head and tail lights, or allow wind tunnel designed, carbon, titanium, spun aluminum, or depleted uranium headlights. $2 or $2000, is it going to make a fig newton of difference in speed?  I don't agree with having to paint the headlights to make them look real, we all know better, but just don't rule out using tape if that is safe and cost efficient.  If the rules were changed to a flat piece of aluminum I would guess you are opening the rules up to what angle or contour is allowed?  I still have to think you are better off spending your money on valve work than on the headlights  In any event, the "flat rule" should say the angle of the flat surface cannot vary more than "x" degrees from vertical.
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Offline maguromic

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Re: Rule change for headlamps in production classes
« Reply #19 on: August 28, 2014, 12:05:02 AM »
Chris, I know your original intent was for production classes, but are you going to address the other car classes that use lights like street roadster?  Tony
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Offline Milwaukee Midget

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Re: Rule change for headlamps in production classes
« Reply #20 on: August 28, 2014, 12:23:50 AM »
Tony, I've already sent it in - I guess it would be up to them to see if it's important enough to warrant an across-the-board re-write - if they want to address the issue at all.

Again, my wording is to make the change an option for those who choose it - not to mandate the change. 
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Offline JimL

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Re: Rule change for headlamps in production classes
« Reply #21 on: August 28, 2014, 02:14:57 AM »
Ed...I was only thinking of the classic round or rectangle all glass sealed beams.  For those, I think a flat plate would work as good as something fancy.  It wouldnt prohibit making a perfect match of an original headlight....just provide a cheap option.

For glass headlamps that have an aero design, like some bikes have, the option of matching orignal profile is easy.  You just put masking tape on the original lens, lay up fiberglass cloth on the back of the masking tape, and it comes right off after cure, and serves as your safety plug.

I just envisioned an option that would not be difficult or expensive for cars like the Midget or old roadsters, old pickups, or all the years that street bikes were running automotive size/style glass seal beams.

Many modern cars and bikes already run plastic lens/lamp assemblies.  Those have relatively shatter-proof reflectors and taping the plastic lens is good enough.

I may should not have commented, but there is a really ugly memory in this subject.  Did not mean to muddy the waters, fellows.

Offline RichFox

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Re: Rule change for headlamps in production classes
« Reply #22 on: August 28, 2014, 08:51:01 AM »
See that? Just what i was talking about. Flat plates. Areo design. Carbon fiber. If you want to build an altered why not just build an altered?

Offline Milwaukee Midget

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Re: Rule change for headlamps in production classes
« Reply #23 on: August 28, 2014, 10:27:45 AM »
Two thoughts:

1.  We have more injuries in the pits, than we do on the course.  And.....Remembering a friend nearly dying after helping push a '51 Chevy pickup backward one winter day, I wonder why we still mess with these glass sealed beams.  The lens caved in, cutting all the arteries and tendons in his left wrist.  It was a very close call to get him to a hospital fast enough.  Dumb mistake, I know, but a taped up sealed beam wont protect in a similar event.  I have seen people in the pits push on the taped up lamp, not wanting to put finger prints on the car.  Open pits and helpful spectators....puts my heart in my throat, every time.

2.  Taping up the lens of a sealed beam is only half the job.  The back/reflector is as bad, or worse, when its broken and scattered in a crash.  Asking everyone to remove their headlamps, to check the tape on the back of the lamp, is an inspection process we dont want.


Jim, I worked for a lighting company for years.  PAR lamps, when broken, create shards that can easily create the injuries your friend suffered.  Imagine what they would do to a motorcycle tire.

See that? Just what i was talking about. Flat plates. Areo design. Carbon fiber. If you want to build an altered why not just build an altered?

And down that road lies M A D N E S S !  :-D

I am thinking safety first, but not at too much cost.  Have people double or triple tape their head and tail lights, or allow wind tunnel designed, carbon, titanium, spun aluminum, or depleted uranium headlights. $2 or $2000, is it going to make a fig newton of difference in speed?  

On a 2 headlight vehicle, we're talking about potentially changing the contour - and again, not all that radically - of a little less than 77 sq. inches of surface.  The Midget front is about 3200 sq. inches.

That's incrementally changing the contour on about 2 1/2 percent of the total frontal area.

That kind of variance can occur on two identical cars coming off of the same assembly line, if the guy leading the seams is hung over.

I can legally do that now by simply removing my Wagner headlights and replacing them with Lucas lamps, and they would still be legal.


I think the insignificant amount of drag reduction that this change might - MIGHT - create - and there is only speculation that it could be an aero advantage - makes falling on the side of safety the priority.

Let me pose these questions - when roadsters were required to switch over from roll bars to full cages, were the changes in speeds a concern to the rule makers?  When roof rails were mandated, was the effect on overall speeds a consideration?

At the end of the day, I'll run what they'll let me run, but I expect that as the rule book gets thicker and thicker, we're likely close to the point where any non-laminated glass is going to be prohibited.
« Last Edit: August 28, 2014, 04:39:29 PM by Milwaukee Midget »
"Problems are almost always a sign of progress."  Harold Bettes
Well, I guess we're making a LOT of progress . . .  :roll:

Offline dw230

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Re: Rule change for headlamps in production classes
« Reply #24 on: August 28, 2014, 08:41:46 PM »
The first statement I always tell the rule group at the meeting is to be careful of what you pass in this room. Your hand is on someone's wallet. Witness all the discussion when the HANS type device was mandated.

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Offline Milwaukee Midget

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Re: Rule change for headlamps in production classes
« Reply #25 on: August 28, 2014, 09:10:41 PM »
The first statement I always tell the rule group at the meeting is to be careful of what you pass in this room. Your hand is on someone's wallet. Witness all the discussion when the HANS type device was mandated.

DW

Dan, often times, that's true.  When the lateral restraints needed to extend to the front of the helmet, that required a lot of time, creativity and money for many of us.

I've thought about this a long time, and your point was something I considered.

My suggested wording is -

Glass headlights may be replaced with shatter resistant headlamp blanking covers of the same shape and general contour of the original lamp. 

My wording - if accepted - provides for an option.  It does not mandate a change, it simply permits the use of a safer alternative.
"Problems are almost always a sign of progress."  Harold Bettes
Well, I guess we're making a LOT of progress . . .  :roll:

Offline Milwaukee Midget

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Re: Rule change for headlamps in production classes
« Reply #26 on: November 24, 2014, 08:45:34 PM »
Haven't heard either way on this one.  Any word?
"Problems are almost always a sign of progress."  Harold Bettes
Well, I guess we're making a LOT of progress . . .  :roll:

Offline jdincau

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Offline Dynoroom

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Re: Rule change for headlamps in production classes
« Reply #28 on: November 24, 2014, 09:21:30 PM »
Sorry Chris, it kinda went the way of the open trailer rule...........   :-)
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Offline Milwaukee Midget

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Re: Rule change for headlamps in production classes
« Reply #29 on: November 24, 2014, 09:42:38 PM »
Looks like I'm still running with boar tits . . .  :-D
 
"Problems are almost always a sign of progress."  Harold Bettes
Well, I guess we're making a LOT of progress . . .  :roll: