Author Topic: Photog's at Bonneville  (Read 8752 times)

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Offline joea

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Photog's at Bonneville
« on: August 24, 2014, 11:42:41 AM »
I cant really say how utterly awesome it is to have the access we have to world class Photographers in LSR...

so many I shouldnt try to list as would surely leave out deserving people

For me personally Freud, Ray, Larry Ledwick and PorkPie have provided PRICELESS images, priceless memories and information as much or more valuable than that from datalogger

Its tough enough getting a vehicle and crew campaigned to and on the salt, getting some posing pics with crew and vehicle is ok and cool etc

BUT having a world class photographer capture images AT SPEED, often reveals detail and information that
is immeasurable in its value to safety and progress to greater speeds

and having these from lenses equipment etal costing $2-3-4000 + with the passion to GIVE TO US behind them and the sport is awe-inspiring

this artwork is proudly on display on our walls at home, Larry's (blackhorsephotography), Freud's (signed with tears), Ray's, and PorkPie's, and these are just landscape images

PorkPie on numerous occassions found us after a pass, with eyes as big as saucers, anxious to show images with detail that "explained" how and why our run felt as it did

again the posing pics at standstill are nice and rewarding, BUT the ones from downtrack where it counts are tremendous and come about from us showing interest and support to those out there like PorkPie who do
it 90% for the people and the sport, %10 for him/themselves...

PorkPie Paypal:   pork.pie@t-online.de,  cell i have used to find Pork when stateside:
1-(801)-644-5936

Blackhorse photo (Larry Ledwick) : http://blackhorsephoto.net/
we have a panoramic from larry of salt flats and mountains that is EPIC in living room 60+ inches long

Joe (like vegemite, full of goodness, but leaves a horrid taste until acquired)

disclaimer: post not meant to be condescending




Offline Speed Limit 1000

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Re: Photog's at Bonneville
« Reply #1 on: August 24, 2014, 06:14:13 PM »
Well stated.  :cheers:

John
John Gowetski, red hat @ 221.183 MPH MSA Lakester, Bockscar #1000 60 ci normally aspirated w/N20

Offline PorkPie

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Re: Photog's at Bonneville
« Reply #2 on: August 26, 2014, 05:45:32 AM »
I don't like to hack the Treits Streamliner thread longer,

so I use Joe's note for my reply.

At first, Thank you very much to Jon (SSS), Joe (Amo), Larry (HotRod), Tom G (Desotoman) and all the other for their words....

As the result, so far.....ONE PayPal came in through my PalPal account....and this very short after Jon wrote his note....

...and again it was someone who had no reason to do.....they was supporter of me over all the years...also when I had only a few picture for them...thanks my friends....

and by the way....I like the new "old School" paintshop on your Corvette...



....the Hope dies at last..... :| :| :|
« Last Edit: August 26, 2014, 05:59:58 AM by PorkPie »
Pork Pie

Photoartist & Historian & 200 MPH Club Member (I/GL 202.8 mph in the orig. Bockscar #1000)

Offline Milwaukee Midget

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Re: Photog's at Bonneville
« Reply #3 on: August 26, 2014, 09:30:21 AM »


PorkPie on numerous occassions found us after a pass, with eyes as big as saucers, anxious to show images with detail that "explained" how and why our run felt as it did


Joe, you are spot on with that.

When you're busy driving, and overwhelmed by all of your senses running a car down the salt, a TRAINED, EXPERIENCED observer such as Pork Pie can put together a sequence of pics that can be quite revealing.

Case in point - I had the Midget suspension set at a height that I thought would have been quite effective to help cheat the wind.  It followed fairly standard racing protocol - lowered spring pans and trimmed springs.

Yet the photo evidence of a sequence of shots at speed that Pork Pie made indicated considerable lift on the front end.

That series of photos started my entire front suspension rethink, which led me to relocated bump stops, narrowed spindles and hubs, air bags and retaining chains.

I'll know in a few weeks if it was effective, but the photos were a TOOL given to me by Pork Pie. 

I paid him for his pictures. 

As to what I paid him, I compared the cost to what it would have cost to come up with some other tool to gather the information those photos gave me.

Given the aesthetic beauty of his work, the imagery is a huge bonus - but the sheer functionality of the evidence should hopefully make the Midget faster.

And let's take this minute to let me pitch a bitch.

If you see someone in a press vest trying to get a shot at the starting lines - GETTHEHELLOUTOFTHEWAY!
"Problems are almost always a sign of progress."  Harold Bettes
Well, I guess we're making a LOT of progress . . .  :roll:

Offline Stainless1

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Re: Photog's at Bonneville
« Reply #4 on: August 26, 2014, 09:43:26 AM »
Pork Pie, there is an old adage that goes like this... Why buy the cow when you get the milk for free... while it is usually to describe another situation it may be applicable here for you and others who take and casually sell pictures of racing on the salt.  I have a couple of ideas...

Turn on the stereo, pour yourself two fingers... (measure with the index and little) and relax a little...

We will talk at WoS, maybe over dinner at the Taco N Ice Cream gas station and tire shop... I'll buy  :-D
Stainless
Red Hat 228.039, 2001, 65ci, Bockscar Lakester #1000 with a little N2O

Offline PorkPie

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Re: Photog's at Bonneville
« Reply #5 on: August 26, 2014, 12:15:07 PM »
Pork Pie, there is an old adage that goes like this... Why buy the cow when you get the milk for free... while it is usually to describe another situation it may be applicable here for you and others who take and casually sell pictures of racing on the salt.  I have a couple of ideas...

Turn on the stereo, pour yourself two fingers... (measure with the index and little) and relax a little...

We will talk at WoS, maybe over dinner at the Taco N Ice Cream gas station and tire shop... I'll buy  :-D


Stainless,

I learned some great "adage" from you....so I like the one with the bridge....

I'm leaning back and relax, for sure....the only reason why I wrote the last note, was, to get the comments away from Freud's "Treits Streamliner" thread.....this one is for the Target 550 team.....

.....and, hey, will you give me ever a chance to pay at the Taco N Ice Cream....... :-D.....and by the way....we still had not the Red Hat/Record dinner with the team...hope we can make it at the WoS......
Pork Pie

Photoartist & Historian & 200 MPH Club Member (I/GL 202.8 mph in the orig. Bockscar #1000)

Offline PorkPie

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Re: Photog's at Bonneville
« Reply #6 on: August 26, 2014, 12:18:57 PM »
Chris,

it was a wonderful donation, thank you very much again :cheers:

....and it was pleasure to help you with this picture.....122+ mph at the WoS 8-)
Pork Pie

Photoartist & Historian & 200 MPH Club Member (I/GL 202.8 mph in the orig. Bockscar #1000)

Offline hotrod

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Re: Photog's at Bonneville
« Reply #7 on: August 26, 2014, 01:47:58 PM »
Quote
Why buy the cow when you get the milk for free...

That has been my conclusion too Stainless.
I have become much less inclined to give away images because like others have commented if you broad cast free images too freely you diminish the perceived value of your work, and help build a culture where folks expect freebees.

The same thing is happening in other areas of photography. In the late 1980's early 1990's if I got good pictures of a news item like a moutain rescue or car crash into a creek I could call the local newspaper (Rocky Mountain News here in Denver) describe what I had and if they were interested they would invite me to come down to the newspaper and they would develop my film for free. In exchange for exclusive first use rights to any images they liked, and a fee which at the time as equivalent to $125 today for a single image on page 3 or 4, plus full photo credits with the image as "special to the Rocky Mountain News by <my name>".

Today most of the news papers are dieing, and most news photographers are out of work. The media that has gone digital in the U.S. now uses the "you report" model where they ask folks to send in images they have of important events. By crowd sourcing those images they get the equivalent of a photography department of hundreds of photographers for free. The people who send them in have no clue what the value of their images are and give them away in return for a photo credit, and the news papers keep the images in their archives so they might be re-used multiple times with no payment to the photographer.

As a result documentary photography (which is much of what we do out at Bonneville) is a dieing art. I have a more photo journalistic style than Pork Pie or Ray did as a result of those efforts 35 years ago to shoot for the news paper, and am trying to force myself to do more "artistic" photography. I notice the shots but often don't take the time to take them. In recent years I have started to take the time to shoot those images, and occasionally even to plan of an image ahead of time.

In addition the modern cameras are good enough you have to really work at it to totally screw up average photos, and people no longer know what top quality photography like Ansel Adams did even looks like because in their entire life they have never seen a tack sharp wall sized print. They are conditioned by 600x400 pixel "good enough" pictures on the web and think that that is what they should be paying for. Throw in a culture of acceptance of cut and paste casual theft of images on the web without photo credits for the source and you get a general lowering of the perception of value of an image.

In my view, the only way to control that is to stop flooding the community with freebee images and dumping all your images on the web for anyone to pilfer at their pleasure.
Strong watermarking helps a lot but even that can be removed by a determined user. Cropping can also be used by not giving away the whole image in high enough resolution to be reproduced as a high quality print or by only showing the technical detail you need to show the person.

As I mentioned earlier in another post I have spent significantly more than $10,000 on my equipment over the last decade, and I am sure Pork Pie and others are in the same range. I could easily spend $7000 for a single top end long telephoto lens for those "at speed" shots but get by with a $1000 lens. Throw in the costs of travel and any reasonable value for your time to cull through pictures, select the best shots, do your corrections, captions and coordinate with the customer about what they are really looking for and it is easy to justify a reasonable cost for large prints.

I in the past talked with Ray about this I know he burned up several photo printers trying to deliver quick turn around shots to the racers, and eventually realized he was losing money on every print he sold at his very reasonable prices.

Until the photographers as a group actively defend the value of their work and insist on reasonable fees for their work this deterioration will continue.
This is a world wide phenomenon effecting all types of photography. If you go on the web and look for it you can find several open letters to photographers to defend the value of their work and not to give themselves and their work away to people who do not appreciate what went into the photos time, money and creativity.

I know photographers who have torn up large prints rather than sell them at the price the customer said they were willing to pay.

If you really sit down and figure the costs of "doing business" How much does it cost you to get to Bonneville with x thousand dollars worth of camera gear, reasonable value for you time spent out on the salt (say a 10-12 hour day not being uncommon) even at minimum wage that works out to $70-$120 a day fee if you were a commercial photographer. Look at the fees for working commercial photographers they often charge $150-$500 just to show up at a photo shoot, plus expenses and then once the shots are taken, they separately negotiate fees for individual shots often in the hundreds to thousands of dollars per image depending on its use. Add to that the peripheral equipment computers, software, high quality photo printer or sending the images out to a lab to be printed, plus postage for shipping.

Pork Pie you are a very good photographer and a responsible supporter of safety for the racers by your donations of knowledge gathered through your images.
Don't give it away, it is fair reasonable and proper for you to get a fair fee for your work.

Just like a wedding, Bonneville record attempts and the events surrounding them are once in a life time events and cannot be "re-shot" at any price.

The picture I have of Speed Demon pooping a turbine impeller out the exhaust pipe at 300+ mph is not something you can recreate no matter how hard you tried.
Same for my picture of Spirit of Rett in the traps on the return run as they took the Golden Rod record.

They are in every sense of the word as precious as a wedding kiss photo. We should present them in that light.
Getting good shots under the photo conditions out at Bonneville and understanding the who what when of how things work is a valuable skill set not to be short changed.

Typical web discussions about photography fees (these are wedding based but I could find the same discussions in all types of photography right now):

http://victoriabcweddingtips.com/?p=296
http://www.caughtonfilmphoto.com/costofphotography.html

« Last Edit: August 26, 2014, 04:17:07 PM by hotrod »

Offline typo41

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Re: Photog's at Bonneville
« Reply #8 on: September 15, 2014, 11:56:11 AM »
All good words,

The giving away of photos has really changed the photography "business'.

For me, I don't share many of my images and because of that, I am not the 'A list' photographers of SpeedWeek.

And why don't I share them?  Because when I see the faces of the racers that open the calendar and see themselves in large print for the first time, it is why I am a photographer. I don't personally know Hotrod, that I can remember, and I have run into Pork Pie.

I don't have a Red Hat, but I do own a land speed vehicle, so I do what what is like to be belted in and make a pass, and pay for it all.

And now here is my bitch. I am official vendor at Speed Week, and as such, I have to buy a million dollar insurance policy incase someone trips over my equipment and or easy up. I have to report my sales to  SCTA and I have to hand over 13% of what I made. What do the rest of the hord of photographers do?

And for the photographers that worried about gas and food and lodging,,, I brought home calendars that I have a large investment in and I will be lucky to pay for. And yes that is racing.

Tony Huntimer
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Offline wheelrdealer

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Re: Photog's at Bonneville
« Reply #9 on: September 15, 2014, 02:17:09 PM »
Hotrod, Type:

I see your point.. makes sense to me. I paid Ray to shoot my car and our team when ever he saw us. The shots were great and we made them into a book. Any additional shots I got from Ray I handled with a donation to the Chevyasylum site. But I have for my own consumption lifted a shot or two over the years from a website. I see the error of my ways and will not do that again. And if I am ever present when the first aliens reveal themselves to earthlings and I memorialize it on my smart phone I will never send it to a news agency to use for free!

BR
ECTA    Maxton D/CGALT  Record Holder 167.522
ECTA    Maxton D/CBGALT Record Holder 166.715

WWW.WHEELRDEALER2100.COM

Offline typo41

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Re: Photog's at Bonneville
« Reply #10 on: September 15, 2014, 02:57:14 PM »
Aliens and Zombies, you throw out the rule book and go for it!  :-D
Tony Huntimer
Huntimer Photography

Offline Buickguy3

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Re: Photog's at Bonneville
« Reply #11 on: September 15, 2014, 10:24:25 PM »
Pork Pie and I have a mutual agreement. He takes pictures and sends me CD's that have great shots of the car/ and our pits. I send him money via PayPal. He doesn't ask me to send a specific amount, but I send him what the pictures are worth to me. Apparently It's enough because he keeps sending them. As a tradeoff, after last year's World of Speed rain out I volunteered to give him a Montana/Wyoming tour. He came up and we went to Yellowstone and the Cody Museum. He spends a lot of time and money making three or four trips to the States each year with no guarantee of any return on his investment. The photo business is tough but can provide huge personal rewards.
    Doug  :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
I keep going faster and faster and I don't know why. All I have to do is live and die.
                   [America]

Offline John Noonan

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Re: Photog's at Bonneville
« Reply #12 on: September 17, 2014, 12:48:48 AM »
What is his PayPal ? 

Offline Finallygotit

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Re: Photog's at Bonneville
« Reply #13 on: September 17, 2014, 10:33:49 AM »
Dan
Tucson, AZ