Author Topic: Oil.  (Read 7665 times)

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Offline Jack Gifford

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Re: Oil.
« Reply #15 on: August 22, 2014, 02:00:00 AM »
... in many cases the difference is just marketing hype...
Definitely not true with Brad Penn- you can stop in Bradford PA and watch it being refined, processed, and packaged. I've been using it (in everything) since 1964 (when it was Kendall GT-1).
M/T Pontiac hemi guru
F/BFL 1-mile Loring record 2020

Offline Bookfla

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Re: Oil.
« Reply #16 on: August 22, 2014, 09:55:05 AM »
JR529, Thanks for you insight on this subject. Did your team ever do break in testing on conventional vs synthetic oils? To your analysis is there any advantage or disadvantage to starting a new engine on conventional oils?

Offline Stainless1

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Re: Oil.
« Reply #17 on: August 22, 2014, 11:01:36 AM »
Can't tell you how the pros do it, but many years ago we built a new motor and were using synthetic oil for the first time. It smoked and spit a little raw oil out the exhaust... we panicked, it was 2 days before heading to the salt.... Called the number on the back of the SynTec bottle, the guy said they recommend using a conventional oil for break in, the rings would probably never seat... pulled the synthetic out, put dinosaur blood in and the motor stopped smoking, the rings seated.  We made our first checkout pass then changed back to synthetic. 
We do break in with conventional oil.
YMMV  :cheers:
Stainless
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Offline jacksoni

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Re: Oil.
« Reply #18 on: August 22, 2014, 11:07:21 AM »
Can't tell you how the pros do it, but many years ago we built a new motor and were using synthetic oil for the first time. It smoked and spit a little raw oil out the exhaust... we panicked, it was 2 days before heading to the salt.... Called the number on the back of the SynTec bottle, the guy said they recommend using a conventional oil for break in, the rings would probably never seat... pulled the synthetic out, put dinosaur blood in and the motor stopped smoking, the rings seated.  We made our first checkout pass then changed back to synthetic. 
We do break in with conventional oil.
YMMV  :cheers:
Have heard this a lot. Is my understanding a lot of (performance) cars come from various factories with synthetic fill. I think the type of hone, ring pack etc likely have something to do with breaking in. And some folks say the rings seat on the engine stand when you are rolling it over during assembly.  :-o. And total seal has "quick seat" you paint on bores during assembly to help things along. Or you can do the Smokey Yunick thing with a can of Comet over the carb to help things along. :roll:  :-D :cheers:
Jack Iliff
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Offline Bob Drury

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Re: Oil.
« Reply #19 on: August 22, 2014, 12:11:34 PM »
  Jack, I hate to disagree but I have it on record that a known authority (Marlo Treit who was a lot boy for Francis Fords Used Car Lot in Portland) said BonAmi and only BonAmi was the approved method (along with speedo roll back) to "renew" a Trade In vehicle before parking it in the lot.
                                                                                         One Run, out............................. :-D :roll: :wink:
Bob Drury

Offline JR529

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Re: Oil.
« Reply #20 on: August 22, 2014, 12:27:28 PM »
JR529, Thanks for you insight on this subject. Did your team ever do break in testing on conventional vs synthetic oils? To your analysis is there any advantage or disadvantage to starting a new engine on conventional oils?

Sorry, I don't have any data on that. I do know that the same oil was used all the time and that it was synthetic. A great deal of attention was paid to the cylinder wall surface and the ring face, with new liners used in every rebuild. We didn't do any boring or honing on site, we always removed the used liner and put in a brand new one, along with new rings and pistons any time the engine was opened up. Used liners & piston combos were always scrapped, never rebuilt. We did a lot of testing on liner wear and different coatings but I was not involved in that, just aware that it was going on.

We monitored crankcase pressure versus engine RPM and boost to be able to get a real time indication of the ring sealing health. I seem to remember it always being fine. I don't remember ever taking an engine out of service once it was already in the field due to excessive blow by.

I use the term "we" a lot in my earlier posts, I want to clarify that I am referring to the company itself and the many people who were working there, not necessarily myself. We had dedicated dyno operators, engine assemblers, engine builders and engineering at our location. I was but a wee-cog in the machine.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2014, 12:30:18 PM by JR529 »

Offline wobblywalrus

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Re: Oil.
« Reply #21 on: August 22, 2014, 01:04:34 PM »
It does not hurt to call the folks that built or sold the bore/piston/ring package and to ask for their advice.  This is what I do.  The advice can differ a lot but it always e seems to work. 

Offline Bookfla

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Re: Oil.
« Reply #22 on: August 22, 2014, 05:44:07 PM »
Thanks for the insight once again. I've always used conventional oil on break in and then switched to the synthetics. This has been the general consensus from most engine builders for quite a while now. Especially in my application with air cooled engines. It seems like most agree
 there's not much difference in break in for bearings but that the ring sealing may be compromised due to the better lubricating factors of synthetics?

Offline JR529

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Re: Oil.
« Reply #23 on: August 22, 2014, 05:53:23 PM »
Thanks for the insight once again. I've always used conventional oil on break in and then switched to the synthetics. This has been the general consensus from most engine builders for quite a while now. Especially in my application with air cooled engines. It seems like most agree there's not much difference in break in for bearings but that the ring sealing may be compromised due to the better lubricating factors of synthetics?

That's what I have heard as well. Lots of OEM's use synthetic from the start but they have the luxury of very tight control over the bore surface condition and the rings, which is great, if you can do it, but unless you are an OEM I think that would be tough.

On our race car we use conventional break in oil then switch to Synthetic. We started with a new ring set and hone before the start of this season and have about 20 minutes of total run time in the shop/pits and 1 pass at El Mirage. We decided to keep the conventional in for the shakedown pass at Bonneville then switch it out to the permanent oil. So far the leak-downs look excellent. 

Offline Hot Rod Lincoln

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Re: Oil.
« Reply #24 on: August 22, 2014, 05:55:08 PM »
Can't tell you how the pros do it, but many years ago we built a new motor and were using synthetic oil for the first time. It smoked and spit a little raw oil out the exhaust... we panicked, it was 2 days before heading to the salt.... Called the number on the back of the SynTec bottle, the guy said they recommend using a conventional oil for break in, the rings would probably never seat... pulled the synthetic out, put dinosaur blood in and the motor stopped smoking, the rings seated.  We made our first checkout pass then changed back to synthetic. 
We do break in with conventional oil.
YMMV  :cheers:
Have heard this a lot. Is my understanding a lot of (performance) cars come from various factories with synthetic fill. I think the type of hone, ring pack etc likely have something to do with breaking in. And some folks say the rings seat on the engine stand when you are rolling it over during assembly.  :-o. And total seal has "quick seat" you paint on bores during assembly to help things along. Or you can do the Smokey Yunick thing with a can of Comet over the carb to help things along. :roll:  :-D :cheers:

I know a guy who built engines at Hendricks , he now runs one of the R&D dyno's , they start every engine with synthetic in them. Final hone has a ton to do with it. And yes their rings are seated when the engine comes off the engine stand