Author Topic: Oil.  (Read 7664 times)

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Offline tauruck

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Oil.
« on: August 20, 2014, 10:37:29 PM »
We all have our favorite oil and most guys will tell why theirs is better but realistically how much better is one over the other?

Offline JR529

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Re: Oil.
« Reply #1 on: August 21, 2014, 12:43:43 AM »
I used to work at a major engine manufacturer who supplied turbocharged V8's for racing. The engines made about 900 HP and tuned ~15k RPM. We mfg about 100 per year and all of them were the same. The customer teams were sponsored by different oil companies and the sanctioning body had a rule that if you put a sticker on a car you had to actually run the product. So if you had a huge "Valvoline" or "Mobile1" or "Penzoil" plastered on the side of the car, the engine had to actually be running their product. So each year we had to validate the oil the customers wanted to run. We only specified the viscosity and that it be synthetic. Then we would run it and validate that it actually worked in a test engine running a full power lifetime endurance profile (~650 miles) on the transient dyno. We carefully set the oil pressure and confirmed the oil pressure vs temps, did a normal power determination profile and compared it to the same engine running our baseline oil. If everything was OK to this point then we cut the simulation loose and sat back.

After the test the engine was disassembled and a full tear down diagnosis was performed and compared to the standard. If it compared equally or better, it was allowed, if not it was failed and they could not use that oil. We didn't get into the oil properties or arguments over additives etc... we just tested under real world racing conditions and based our results on how the engine performed and the wear on the engine components.

At some point we tested pretty much every name brand full synthetic oil and all but one passed. I'm not saying they are all the same, just that they all worked equally well during our testing.

The only one to "fail" was a Royal Purple synthetic. And I put "fail" in quotes because it wasn't that it was a bad oil, it was the only one actually made measurably more power than our baseline oil, it "failed" because it had a scary tendency to alter it's pressure vs temperature properties. We lived and died by our oil temp vs oil pressure charts for an engine. It was how we knew they were OK or going south. For a given RPM and Oil temperature, the oil pressure should be repeatable, every. single. time. If it's not then you got problems. The Royal Purple was all over the map and it scared the bejeesus out of the Chief Engineer so it was not allowed to be raced.

Ever since then I just use a quality synthetic in my motors, I don't care about the brand.

That's just my observation, YMMV

Offline wobblywalrus

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Re: Oil.
« Reply #2 on: August 21, 2014, 01:09:44 AM »
There is some debate about phosphorous free high ester synthetic vs the traditional synthetic with zinc and phosphorous.  Did you see any differences in that respect?

Offline salt

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Re: Oil.
« Reply #3 on: August 21, 2014, 03:44:47 AM »
I love topics like this one on landracing.com.
Ironically, I was running Royal Purple during both of my oil-related catastrophic engine failures.
Currently using Torco w/out any signs of trouble.

Willi
Who Has More Fun?

Offline aussievetteracer

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Re: Oil.
« Reply #4 on: August 21, 2014, 04:27:36 AM »
JR529- can I ask what oil temp. was regarded as "safe or normal" and also what was the max. temp. permitted? Here in Oz I have run Mobil 1 syn. in my vette in road racing and tarmac rallies for a lot of years, without any problem. Oil temp. normally is below 220F, but has some times got to 240F, which always made me nervous.
                                                                                                                         Thanks, Denis
Denis

Offline tauruck

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Re: Oil.
« Reply #5 on: August 21, 2014, 06:47:03 AM »
Thanks JR, a better answer I couldn't get. :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
Would you mind if I PM'd you?.

Offline JR529

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Re: Oil.
« Reply #6 on: August 21, 2014, 12:34:38 PM »
We targeted 95-100C for oil temp. We didn't lose and sleep as long as it stayed between 90 and 110C (194-230F).

Let me be clear that I don't want to disparage Royal Purple oil. As I said earlier, it was the only oil we tested that made a statistically significant increase in horsepower over our development baseline. The reason we disallowed it was it precluded us from using our tried and true engine wear criteria. Every new engine placed into rotation had a spec sheet with the nominal oil pressure at a specific oil temp at a few different RPM's. Over the life of the engine this data was used to make the go/no-go decision for the next session. It had to be within a specified tolerance to be carried forward. The problem we had with the Royal Purple was we could not even set the baseline as it could not be made to repeat reliably with our test setup. This was the only time we ever encountered anything like this and it precluded us from moving forward with the test. The engine was not damaged, nor did we think the oil was "unsafe". We simply could not use our normally accepted criteria to evaluate the engine condition and performance so we couldn't even test it in an apples to apples way. No test means no validation, means no running this oil. The team that wanted to use it ran that same oil successfully in a lower formula they raced in with spec engines to great success.       

Offline JR529

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Re: Oil.
« Reply #7 on: August 21, 2014, 12:43:02 PM »
There is some debate about phosphorous free high ester synthetic vs the traditional synthetic with zinc and phosphorous.  Did you see any differences in that respect?

I don't remember (or ever really knew) what the additives were. We just wanted one question answered; Will this oil prevent wear as well as, and allow as much HP as the baseline oil does? We didn't care how the oil companies did it and since we weren't sponsored by an oil company ourselves or sold any oil we had no horse in that race, we just wanted to ensure that our engines, (which had a mileage warranty when used properly) would still survive as we designed them when used with a different oil.

People on the internet will debate anything. I think that they cant be happy if they don't have something to argue about.

Offline DaveB

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Re: Oil.
« Reply #8 on: August 21, 2014, 01:17:10 PM »
My work used to take me in many different manufacturing plants. I saw facilities making items where the only brand difference is the name on the sticker that gets put on at the end of the line. Or not quite as bad the line will set up to run a certain brand for a time then is switched later to another brand.

I personally was in a plant and saw the corresponding paperwork where multiple national brand spark plugs were being built. I was also in a plant that made multiple tire brands.

A friend that did a similar job to mine told me that one oil bottling facility at times changed brands by only changing the labels.

I am sure some, maybe most, manufacturers of items I call "semi standardized" have real differences in their products but I know in many cases the difference is just marketing hype.
Everything I know about opera, I learned from Bugs Bunny.

Offline manta22

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Re: Oil.
« Reply #9 on: August 21, 2014, 01:44:37 PM »
In one of our Can-Am races back in the early '70s-- I forget which--, the weather was beastly hot. So hot, in fact, that after the race was over, some drivers had to be lifted from the cockpits and laid on the ground to recover from the heat. Bob Peckham, the owner & driver of a McLaren M8C, noted that by the end of the race, his gauges were showing a water temperature of 240F and oil temperature of 290F. Fortunately, everything stayed together and he finished.

We ran Valvoline oil, primarily because the Valvoline guys cruised the paddock garages, giving out cases of oil to any teams that wanted some. Sometimes they had ATF for the tow trucks, etc, too. I certainly don't recommend a 290F oil temperature but for the duration of the latter part of the 200 mile race, it did its job.

I guess I formed a loyalty to RC Cola for the same reason (other than I like it)-- they gave away ice-cold RC to all the racers.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ

Offline tortoise

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Re: Oil.
« Reply #10 on: August 21, 2014, 02:16:55 PM »
People on the internet will debate anything. I think that they cant be happy if they don't have something to argue about.
What a bunch of shit! 

Offline Rex Schimmer

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Re: Oil.
« Reply #11 on: August 21, 2014, 06:45:39 PM »
JR529, what was the viscosity of the oil you used in your engines? Many of the manufactures that are in racing today, notably Audi, are using very thin oils with viscosity ratings of 0-20. Obviously this takes some very special engine parts, special assembly and special oil but it also makes HP.

Neil's story reminds me of the IMSA GTU race at Sears Point in 1980, I was working for Bob Bergstrom and we had a Mazda RX7, anyway about half way through the race Bob radios in that the water was at 230 and the oil at 290+ and he asked the crew chief, Harry Haggard, "What should I do?" Harry's reply: "Stop looking at the gauges"! We went on to be third in the race.

Rex
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Offline Dynoroom

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Re: Oil.
« Reply #12 on: August 21, 2014, 06:50:11 PM »
^^^^^^^^^^
Good crew chief
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Racing is just a series of "Problem Solving" events that allow you to spend money & make noise...

Offline manta22

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Re: Oil.
« Reply #13 on: August 21, 2014, 07:04:49 PM »
Rex;

Patient: "It hurts when I do this."

Doctor: "Don't do that."  :-D

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ

Offline JR529

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Re: Oil.
« Reply #14 on: August 21, 2014, 07:12:20 PM »
JR529, what was the viscosity of the oil you used in your engines?

To be totally honest, I don't remember. I'll poke around in my notes and see if I can dig it up. It was over 10 years ago so things like that are long gone from my memory. Since it never changed for the 7 years I was doing that I rarely had the need to care at all about the oil. I had lots of other things to keep me busy during engine changes so I didn't poke my nose in where it wasn't needed. Once a specific oil was approved the teams did the rest. We never changed the oil once it was put in during engine install and topped off after first warm up. I do remember that all the approved oils were off the shelf products and on more than one occasion a team had to send out a truckie to visit the local auto parts stores when someone goofed up on a trailer load out.

Neil's story reminds me of the IMSA GTU race at Sears Point in 1980, I was working for Bob Bergstrom and we had a Mazda RX7, anyway about half way through the race Bob radios in that the water was at 230 and the oil at 290+ and he asked the crew chief, Harry Haggard, "What should I do?" Harry's reply: "Stop looking at the gauges"! We went on to be third in the race.

Absolutely! Once the race starts you keep going. If it wont make it then you pull off the racing line but until that happens you keep going!

We had one car that was in the lead pack on a Super Speedway in 1996. It was hauling ass but then we saw (telemetry) the oil pressure drop to zero abruptly. We radioed the driver and asked how it feels and he said "how does what feel?, fine I guess!" so we told him to keep on it but be a little careful for the next few laps there might be an issue. The next time buy he laid down a smokescreen a WW2 destroyer would have been proud of and coasted to a stop. I guess the sensor was right that time.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2014, 07:20:52 PM by JR529 »