Author Topic: Exhaust Temp numbers how hot is safe ?  (Read 12421 times)

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Offline ronnieroadster

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Exhaust Temp numbers how hot is safe ?
« on: August 17, 2014, 07:31:45 PM »
Not sure if theres a good way of asking this but is there a safe temp number I should be looking for when using my exhaust temp gauge? The gauge high point is 1500 degrees I run bown on gas the motor is a flathead not an easy combination to play with.  But as we all know if we want easy Land Speed Racing would not be what we would do. To date I have run the mile and mile and a half so any ideas?  :cheers:
Working in the shop I use the 'F' word a lot. No not that word these words Focus and Finish go Fast and Flathead Ford!
 ECTA  XF/BGRMR Record 179.8561
 LTA    XF/BGRMR  Record 200.921 First  Ever Ford Flathead Roadster to hit 200 MPH burning gasoline July 2018
 SCTA  XF/BGRMR Record 205.744  First gas burning Ford flathead powered roadster to top 200 MPH at Bonneville August 7, 2021 top speed 219.717
 SCTA  XXF/BGRMR Record 216.131 plus a Red Hat
"Life Member of the Bonneville 200 MPH Club"

Offline Stainless1

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Re: Exhaust Temp numbers how hot is safe ?
« Reply #1 on: August 17, 2014, 07:43:31 PM »
Our 84 inch Blown Gas motor had 1450 degree temps... Made it 8 miles... sure wish it would have gone 10 :roll:
Stainless
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Offline RichFox

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Re: Exhaust Temp numbers how hot is safe ?
« Reply #2 on: August 17, 2014, 08:57:40 PM »
I wonder if running the exhaust so far through the block and water jacket wouldn't make EGTs not useful? If you could get the probe in the port near the valve it would have numbers more like all the OHV/OHC engines.

Offline hotrod

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Re: Exhaust Temp numbers how hot is safe ?
« Reply #3 on: August 17, 2014, 09:20:14 PM »
It depends on lots of things:

Where are you measuring the EGT?

Which side of peak temperature are you.

These following articles are two absolutely classic articles from Pelicans Perch.
These come from the general aviation community but they have LOTS of good info in them and I would suggest you read both articles about 3-4 times.
I have and I still learn things each time I go look at them.

The real key is illustration # 3 ( second article 4 trace chart of EGT, CHT, BHP and BSFC) that shows the relationship between max egt and power output. <---- very important chart study it!
Keep in mind most aviation engines are air cooled so they depend on cylinder head temps to help them find best power.
On a liquid cooled engine cylinder head temp is not very useful, but the EGT power and ignition timing relationships are the same.

http://www.avweb.com/news/pelican/182132-1.html?redirected=1


http://www.avweb.com/news/pelican/182084-1.html?redirected=1

What you need to do to keep an engine alive is to find the peak power output then back off the timing or richen the mixture just enough to detect a 1% loss of power.
This is a trial and error process that hopefully puts you on the safe side of the fuel mixture/EGT hump where you have just a small cushion in the tune.

A tune that gives max safe power after a short dyno pull will melt the engine after 2 min at full power.
Decreasing EGT can mean two different things depending on where you are in that curve on the front side of fuel mixture curve EGT's increase as you make more power but after you pass the highest EGTs (which is usually lean of best power) EGT's drop as power increases.

You need to figure out which side of that mixture hump you are on before you can figure out your detonation risk and best EGT.
If you are hot and add fuel and you are really on the lean side of that hump you will burn down the engine.

Peak EGT is usually measured just  few inches outside the exhaust port (fuel burning as the exhaust valve opens and turbulent mixing in the port)
Peak EGT is usually on the lean side of peak power mixture. If you add fuel and EGT goes down you are on that rich power side of the curve.
If you add fuel and EGT goes up, you are probably on the lean side of that hump and very likely have too much timing.

This is why NACA always did their tests at 99% of max power (extensive tests had told them where the ideal ignition timing was for best power so they only fiddled with the fuel mixture)

Set a safe max power fuel mixture and find your best power ignition timing, then search for that rich best power setting for the fuel mixture.
Fuel burn speed changes with mixture, so you will have to hop back and forth a few times to find the true best power timing at your best power fuel mixture.

Good luck!

Offline kiwi belly tank

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Re: Exhaust Temp numbers how hot is safe ?
« Reply #4 on: August 17, 2014, 10:20:27 PM »
Rich is right on the money there, flatheads are an odd bitch in the porting. EGT will be a handy tool once you know the numbers but you will have to arrive there by reading the plugs & the rule of thumb is start fat. Center port will read hotter than the end ports.
  Sid.

Offline Milwaukee Midget

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Re: Exhaust Temp numbers how hot is safe ?
« Reply #5 on: August 17, 2014, 11:10:39 PM »
Rich is right on the money there, flatheads are an odd bitch in the porting. EGT will be a handy tool once you know the numbers but you will have to arrive there by reading the plugs & the rule of thumb is start fat. Center port will read hotter than the end ports.
  Sid.

Funny you should mention that.

Wayno has a cut-up flathead, and I was able to study the exhaust flow pattern.

An arduous path, regardless of which port you're looking at.

I'd think a series of head temps would give you more consistent and usable readings.
"Problems are almost always a sign of progress."  Harold Bettes
Well, I guess we're making a LOT of progress . . .  :roll:

Offline ronnieroadster

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Re: Exhaust Temp numbers how hot is safe ?
« Reply #6 on: August 18, 2014, 04:08:22 PM »
Very interesting thoughts.  Considering the length of the flathead exhaust ports and the center cylinders being combined that might make a difference but I'm not sold on that. Information I have read about LSR runs at Bonneville tells me to stay in the 1200 degree range. Accomplishing this on all cylinders is difficult with the center jointed ports. Since I know the present tune up to be safe for the mile runs I do here in the East I will place the sender at the joined ports to see what the reading will be.
Working in the shop I use the 'F' word a lot. No not that word these words Focus and Finish go Fast and Flathead Ford!
 ECTA  XF/BGRMR Record 179.8561
 LTA    XF/BGRMR  Record 200.921 First  Ever Ford Flathead Roadster to hit 200 MPH burning gasoline July 2018
 SCTA  XF/BGRMR Record 205.744  First gas burning Ford flathead powered roadster to top 200 MPH at Bonneville August 7, 2021 top speed 219.717
 SCTA  XXF/BGRMR Record 216.131 plus a Red Hat
"Life Member of the Bonneville 200 MPH Club"

Offline RichFox

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Re: Exhaust Temp numbers how hot is safe ?
« Reply #7 on: August 18, 2014, 06:09:49 PM »
If you are running cooling water in the block, you are cooling the exhaust ports. I don't know of any other engine that cools the exhaust to the extent of the flathead Ford. Heat transfer from the exhaust to the coolant is why Flatheads have the reputation for over heating. PS The car that had top speed at the recent test and tune never reached 900 degrees EGT

Offline Dynoroom

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Re: Exhaust Temp numbers how hot is safe ?
« Reply #8 on: August 18, 2014, 06:20:50 PM »
It also ran alky Rich.....  :wink:
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Offline Harold Bettes

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Re: Exhaust Temp numbers how hot is safe ?
« Reply #9 on: August 18, 2014, 07:27:28 PM »
Ladies and Gentlemen and All that like this kind of stuff,

Kindly note that tuning by referencing the EGT is a very problematic approach. First one must find the peak temperature and that will occur at stoichiometric (chemically correct for the fuel). Also note that the curve of A/F vs temperature is a bell shaped curve so you need to know which side of the curve you are on. Hope that comes out

Regards,
HB2 :-)
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Offline ronnieroadster

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Re: Exhaust Temp numbers how hot is safe ?
« Reply #10 on: August 18, 2014, 07:30:25 PM »
If you are running cooling water in the block, you are cooling the exhaust ports. I don't know of any other engine that cools the exhaust to the extent of the flathead Ford. Heat transfer from the exhaust to the coolant is why Flatheads have the reputation for over heating. PS The car that had top speed at the recent test and tune never reached 900 degrees EGT
  Having been involved with flatheads for well over 45 years now I certainly know the issues created by the exhaust ports of the flathead when dealing with heating issues. For the time being I still run wet blocks the heat added to the cooling water from the exhaust have not been a problem I guess my cooling system for the short runs to date is taking care of that area. I doubt the little cooling from the water would make a big difference in the exhaust temps especially if there's a lean situation going on.
   Would I like to see only 900 degrees sure but I doubt a gas burning engine under load would be that low running a mile or more. But if the tune up is fat enough then lower exhaust temps would be possible however then the speeds might suffer.  :cheers:
Working in the shop I use the 'F' word a lot. No not that word these words Focus and Finish go Fast and Flathead Ford!
 ECTA  XF/BGRMR Record 179.8561
 LTA    XF/BGRMR  Record 200.921 First  Ever Ford Flathead Roadster to hit 200 MPH burning gasoline July 2018
 SCTA  XF/BGRMR Record 205.744  First gas burning Ford flathead powered roadster to top 200 MPH at Bonneville August 7, 2021 top speed 219.717
 SCTA  XXF/BGRMR Record 216.131 plus a Red Hat
"Life Member of the Bonneville 200 MPH Club"

Offline Milwaukee Midget

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Re: Exhaust Temp numbers how hot is safe ?
« Reply #11 on: August 18, 2014, 07:35:59 PM »
Very interesting thoughts.  Considering the length of the flathead exhaust ports and the center cylinders being combined that might make a difference but I'm not sold on that.

2 cents.

I really think you shouldn't dismiss that, but I can't see an effective way to accurately get values on a Flathead.

I'm running a shared exhaust port on my center 2 cylinders.  Midgets, Sprites, Minis, MGAs, MGBs - all shared port center exhaust.

It's not that the center is actually running hotter so much as it's a function of average cooling time.

On the Flathead, you virtually circumnavigate the cylinder with exhaust on the front and back.

Consider yourself lucky to have 8 intake ports.  On the Midget, we're compensating for shared intake ports, so 1 and 4 exhaust ports are all we have to really go on when tuning a 2 barrel, if you're tuning by exhaust temp.

It you're not running zoomies, you might be better off just going with an A/F gauge, assume the average and check your plugs every run.

Probably owe you a penny . . .


"Problems are almost always a sign of progress."  Harold Bettes
Well, I guess we're making a LOT of progress . . .  :roll:

Offline kiwi belly tank

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Re: Exhaust Temp numbers how hot is safe ?
« Reply #12 on: August 19, 2014, 09:49:23 AM »
If you are running cooling water in the block, you are cooling the exhaust ports. I don't know of any other engine that cools the exhaust to the extent of the flathead Ford. Heat transfer from the exhaust to the coolant is why Flatheads have the reputation for over heating. PS The car that had top speed at the recent test and tune never reached 900 degrees EGT
  Having been involved with flatheads for well over 45 years now I certainly know the issues created by the exhaust ports of the flathead when dealing with heating issues. For the time being I still run wet blocks the heat added to the cooling water from the exhaust have not been a problem I guess my cooling system for the short runs to date is taking care of that area. I doubt the little cooling from the water would make a big difference in the exhaust temps especially if there's a lean situation going on.
   Would I like to see only 900 degrees sure but I doubt a gas burning engine under load would be that low running a mile or more. But if the tune up is fat enough then lower exhaust temps would be possible however then the speeds might suffer.  :cheers:
I"m wondering why you even asked for advice here, you seem to have all the answers you're looking for.
Bring your current tuneup, it'll be fat & slow up here.
  Sid.

Offline jimmy six

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Re: Exhaust Temp numbers how hot is safe ?
« Reply #13 on: August 19, 2014, 11:43:30 AM »
On my shared exhaust port GMC stock head the #6 single port is the hottest not either of the shared ports. My best speeds on NA gasoline have  been at 1500*. Good luck..
First GMC 6 powered Fuel roadster over 200, with 2 red hats. Pit crew for Patrick Tone's Super Stock #49 Camaro

Offline ronnieroadster

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Re: Exhaust Temp numbers how hot is safe ?
« Reply #14 on: August 19, 2014, 04:23:27 PM »
WOW Sid thanks for your imput. If I had all the answers I wouldn't have asked the question!
 Jimmy Six thanks for the info.
Working in the shop I use the 'F' word a lot. No not that word these words Focus and Finish go Fast and Flathead Ford!
 ECTA  XF/BGRMR Record 179.8561
 LTA    XF/BGRMR  Record 200.921 First  Ever Ford Flathead Roadster to hit 200 MPH burning gasoline July 2018
 SCTA  XF/BGRMR Record 205.744  First gas burning Ford flathead powered roadster to top 200 MPH at Bonneville August 7, 2021 top speed 219.717
 SCTA  XXF/BGRMR Record 216.131 plus a Red Hat
"Life Member of the Bonneville 200 MPH Club"