Refillable Fire Suppression Systems

[wheelrdealer]

First of all, Slim PA.com will make a contribution to the site in the next few days, we have sold a few fire suppression systems to some of our forum friends.

I had a discussion with a customer today about the various fire systems available to racers. We carry FireBottle FE-36 systems. There are pros and cons for FE-36 and that is not the intention of this post.

The question came up about the refillable systems that are out there and available to racers. Not finding any answers on the manufacturer's websites, I called SFI to ask. These refillable systems on the surface may seem attractive especially to Bonneville racers as Freiburger so eloquently said, "Bonneville is like racing on the moon." And there are no truer words about Bonneville when we need a part for our car or bike.

Races and I guess tech people, should be aware that SFI 17.1 specifically states in sec. 2.8 and 2.9 the SFI certification comes from the manufacturer. A system refilled by a racer at Bonneville or in between rounds at a race track is no longer SFI 17.1 certified. So if someone discharges a system and refills it at the site without a factory authorized technician there to do it, then they are technically in violation of the sanctioning bodies rule on fire suppression and SFI 17.1. I would guess they could be subject to disqualification, but again, that is not the purpose of my post.

Not trying to pick a fight with any other suppression system suppliers just think that people should know the facts and make their own decision.

BR

[8]

SCTA/BNI does NOT require SFI certified fire systems   

[4-barrel Mike]

The three 5# Fire Bottles that came with my car were manufactured in 1999, 2000, and 2001; too old to be refillable by their standards, so I just bought three (new, filled) replacement bottles from some guys in Florida.    

Cheaper than the big name stores and with free shipping, really reasonable.

Mike

[Buickguy3]

  If I have the required "legal, certified" bottles installed and operational in the car, can I leave the old bottles in the car and operational for backup? Can't see why I have to put them in the landfill.
     Doug 

[wheelrdealer]

8

Perhaps, the SCTA/BNI Tech experts can clarify what inspection/filling certification standard means if not to SFI 17.1. SCTA/BNI requires fire bottles to be inspected/filled certified every 24 months which should be to SFI 17.1 requirements. With that said, if a system is filled by a racer and not filled by the manufacturer or their representative sometime in the 24 months, the system, it would seem, is no longer in compliance with the 24 month inspection requirement.

I conversation with a guy that thought a system was SFI 17.1 certified because he used the manufacturer's $64.99 recharge kit. Someone at a big retailer had convinced him that he did not need to send his stuff back to be SFI 17.1 compliant. He was misled, bought a system and called me just to try and justify his purchase I guess. Seemed like a good guy, he bought a good system but got some bad information.   

Again, not trying to start a debate just throwing it out there for people to make up their own mind.

BR

[38flattie]

Bill, first, thank you for the deal on the new fire system!

Now, to address your ‘concerns’- plain and simple, I think you’re overthinking it.

The rules do not state anything about SFI certs. They say ‘A current inspection/filling certification (no more than 24 months old) for each agent bottle shall be visible, blah blah blah”

There are many local fire prevention companies licensed and qualified to fill and inspect bottles-no, they won’t be SFI, but from what I read, they do not have to be.

[Milwaukee Midget]

Buddy, that's correct.

I just got off the phone with Roy Creel 3 hours ago regarding this very issue.

If you have a licensed fire suppression service contractor locally, their certification will be fine for Bonneville.

Just make sure you have them put the stickers in the right place.

[Buickguy3]

   I believe that they can only be re-certified about three times. After a certain time, [6-8 years] the mfg. say that the bottles must be removed from service. This comes from my local fire bottle company. He said that he couldn't re-tag my Fire Bottles as they had reached 8 years from the mfg. date and had to be scrapped.
    Doug 

[wheelrdealer]

The issue never was a manufacturer or their agent refilling and certifying systems. The issue was a racer recharging their system themselves which is not a fire system supply/service facility or anyone one of the racing fire safety companies. The issue is the do it yourself claim that the system was still inspected and certified and it is not. Late last night I received an email from the manufacturer of the refill it yourself system and it stated their system had to be returned with a fee to re-certify after discharge with new sticker applied.

All I wanted to do here was clear up the myth that a system that is refilled by a racer is certified...it is not.

The truth is on the refill it yourself systems there is no way for any sanctioning body tech inspector to know if the system was charged by a manufacture/agent or a racer.

Again, this is just information. There are a lot of good systems and I am not knocking any of them or any racer's decision to use one over the other.

BR

[wheelrdealer]

4 Barrel:
thanks, happy to help.

MM
I have been accused of under-thinking things but never over thinking things... thank you! I see your point.

[Speed Limit 1000]

I have a question on the "wet" agents. At what temperature will they boil and cook the driver?

[jimmy six]

Wheeler.....guess I'm confused. If I discharge my system (and I have by mistake in my garage) and I refill it properly and pressurize it, take to a fire suppression service contractor to have it checked ( pressure checked and weighed) and that tech places a inspected/date tag on it I'm not legal??    I think you are incorrect in your thinking......I cannot be the inspector of the bottle but the tech can.....

[Ron Gibson]

From what I've read, I think one of the racer refillable systems use an aqueous solution as agent and a CO2 cartridge as propellant when or if needed. If the cartridge is not punctured and the vessel full, it is good to go.

Had my 5 & 10 lb Cold Fire bottles re-certed yesterday. Cost me the outrageous sum of $9.50  

One of the racers uses a fire department tagged, 2.5 gallon (20.8 lb) water/aqueous extinguisher with  homemade total use trigger mechanism that has been approved by the inspectors.

YMMV
Ron

[Milwaukee Midget]

Wheeler.....guess I'm confused. If I discharge my system (and I have by mistake in my garage) and I refill it properly and pressurize it, take to a fire suppression service contractor to have it checked ( pressure checked and weighed) and that tech places a inspected/date tag on it I'm not legal??    I think you are incorrect in your thinking......I cannot be the inspector of the bottle but the tech can.....

I think the distinction is that it would no longer be considered SFI certified, but the indication from Roy is that it would still be acceptable for SCTA-BNI

I'm a bit surprised I haven't seen the cynical argument that the SFI spec is intended to underwrite a steady income for their cert department.  The focus - above all of our linguistic gymnastics - is putting a safe fire suppression system in our cars.  We're all on the same page with that one.

I'd be really leery of a DIY fill of any variety.

My bottles have about 2 and 4 years left on them.  It's my intention to use them at Speedweek and pension them off, as I won't be running in 2015 - and Bill, I know who I'm going to order my new bottles from.

Bill, here's a question for you.  I was talking to Kiwi Steve last week, and he said that unlike some of the smaller vintage racing sanctioning bodies, SCTA-BNI looks at both the month and the year of the certification.  That's fine, but it occurs to me that if you can get a bottle for Speedweek dated in August, that you could theoretically run 3 events on it.

Of course, when you order a bottle, they mark it and tag it the day it goes out the door.  One of mine is a March date, the other - May.

Is it possible to place an order so that the bottles fall into the August stamping without running the risk of them not showing up in time for Speedweek?

Do you stock the bottles and do the tagging, and if so, would it be possible to pick them up at Speedweek - provided you're attending?

Here's hoping they never have to be put to use.  

[Speed Limit 1000]

My bottles have about 2 and 4 years left on them.  It's my intention to use them at Speedweek and pension them off, as I won't be running in 2015 - and Bill, I know who I'm going to order my new bottles from.

Maybe we could buy them for our Abarth. As soon as Pete is ready to finish the safety updates the Zagato should be ready to run