2014 The Road Ahead for Nish Motorsports

[Speed Limit 1000]

Sum :cheers:FTF

[Malcolm UK]

"Speed costs money ............... how fast do you want to go?"

Taking this well known saying as a starting point, when it comes to a speed record ....... who do you want to be compared with. If its the best you will have to pay the fees of the selected governing body.

The FIA have perhaps the longest history of governance in speed record breaking - not that this makes them flawless as LAN (Velocity) has noted in archived postings on the World speeds in this forum - and an entrant/driver knows that their speed could put them above all of the gretest names which include, Thomas, Keech, Campbell (M), Segrave, Cobb, Eyston, Campbell (D), Summers, Teague, etc ......

As Terry mentions a few times he has spoken with ACCUS and USAC as well as the FIA.  He does this because, whilst Paris sets the regulations (as found on the website), the sporting body for a country (the 'ASN') takes control of any world speed record attempt on their land and the USA has the organisation ACCUS and the two main speed bodies of USAC & SCCA for these duties. [Lets use ACCUS/USAC as the pairing and call them the 'ASN'.]

Whilst financial numbers are not spelt out in the FIA document "Appendix D", it is clear that an individual has to pay whatever amounts ($) the land owner and ASN require in fees and the latter has to pay the officials which are required to be present at the attempt and they pass back the cost of those people attending to the competitor. 

The reason for not stating amounts is that they differ Country to Country.  [As an aside in the UK it now costs a private entrant £3,000.00 (about $5,000.00) for the facility fee to make an application for an official World speed record attempt with our Motor Sports Association - then you still have to add all of the other costs of location hire, safety services, and ASN officials].

What is however made clear in Appendix D4.4 is that there can be an "ASN Annual Event" dedicated for world record attempts and if world records are achieved the individual pays the FIA for the ratification process.  In other words all of the 'basic' costs which can be set by ACCUS/USAC would be spread amongst all of the automobile entrants.  This should reduce an individual racers financial burden.

The ratification process involves all of the FIA Land Speed Records Commission representatives, who ensure that the whole process set down by the FIA has been carried out by the entrant and reported correctly by the ASN. These representatives are from many nations of the world. Last year the ratification fee for each record claimed (converted from Euros) was about $4,000.00 and this is paid to Paris.

So if you set a kilometre and mile record on Bonneville there could well be a total sum to pay amounting to at least $25,000 (or £16,000GBP), but most of that amount goes into the coffers of the ASN (ACCUS/USAC), to the sfety personnel and some to the land owner.
 
Malcolm

[Speed Limit 1000]

Anyone understand this?

Someone should get Mike Cook to see if he could try to start something

Thanks Malcolm. What a great idea

[Malcolm UK]

Sorry about using European English above but the FIA are pedantic in their latest 2014 regulations in the phrases they have chosen.

If Terry Nish is complaining on camera about the costs; has issues to resolve in his mind of challenging an FIA Land speed record (or not); yet still he refers to the 'September' meeting being one that they would enter, then Mike Cook does not seem to be allowed to organise the "ASN Annual Event" and pass on the potential shared cost 'savings' to the car teams.

The 'dumping' of the FIA would actually be a dumping of ACCUS/USAC etc - your own people over there!

Would any other organisation, such as the LSA which Terry spoke of work, for less money than the FIA and have the credibility to govern speed records?
 

[Sumner]

....
Would any other organisation, such as the LSA which Terry spoke of work, for less money than the FIA and have the credibility to govern speed records?

As far as I know the Rice Brothers time all events here on the salt.  We trust their timing.  If someone else in the world only trusts it because an FIM/FIA official was there then I guess they can have a problem with the reported speed.

Myself, if the FIM/FIA official is absent from say Mike Cook's event where they do run both directions within the time required and a speed is posted for a bike or car I'll take it that speed is correct and would give it the honor it deserves.

Do we think the speeds at say Speed Week are 'cooked' because there wasn't a FIA/FIM official.  They are in my mind legitimate speeds timed by the same people with the same equipment used say at Mike's meet.  They are in a different category only in that they weren't run in both directions within the 1 HR/2 HR time that has become a standard for world records.  There is a place for both classification of records and actually more people over here are interested in the SCTA records as that is what they are going after,

Sumner

[Malcolm UK]

....
Would any other organisation, such as the LSA which Terry spoke of work, for less money than the FIA and have the credibility to govern speed records?

Myself, if the FIM/FIA official is absent from say Mike Cook's event where they do run both directions within the time required and a speed is posted for a bike or car I'll take it that speed is correct and would give it the honor it deserves.

They are in a different category only in that they weren't run in both directions within the 1 HR/2 HR time that has become a standard for world records.  Sumner

I have never doubted that speeds are being correctly calculated from the times recorded through the mile or kilometre and that the allowed period of 1 hour (cars) and 2 hours (bikes) is being adhered to. 

Apart from the possibility of cheaper ratification fees - the FIA amount of say $8,000 is reduced or removed entirely - I pose the question once again - would Terry or any other entrant in the USA be asked for less than the $17,000 to $22,000 by any other governing organisation to stage a world speed record attempt? [What would this 'organisation' charge someone in Britain or Australia?]

May I suggest for the purposes of this discussion that the answer could well be "no", because the SCTA/BNI has not chosen such a worldwide role and the LSA never made an impression on the speed scene, even in the USA. 

[Sumner]

... would Terry or any other entrant in the USA be asked for less than the $17,000 to $22,000 by any other governing organization to stage a world speed record attempt?....

Would that $17,000 to $22,000 be the cost of the event or just the cost of the organization to be there and give their blessings to the speeds with the cost of the permits, course workers, insurance, and timing personal being above those costs?

If Mike ran his event and didn't have FIA/FIM officials there would you consider any records set to not be a world record?

I do respect your desire to have the meet run under FIA/FIM sanction but for some of us, at least me, that isn't necessary criteria to have a new world record recognized,

Sumner

[Speed Limit 1000]

 

[TrickyDicky]

From the Shootout web site:

"The shootout was established by Cook’s Land Speed Events in 2006 specifically to accommodate racers seeking to challenge existing FIA and FIM certified world land speed records for cars and motorcycles"

So would Mike Cook even be interested in running an event without FIA/FIM officials present?

And if he did run such an event, would anyone turn up?

[Malcolm UK]

Would that $17,000 to $22,000 be the cost of the event or just the cost of the organization to be there and give their blessings to the speeds with the cost of the permits, course workers, insurance, and timing personal being above those costs?
Sumner

The financial figures are those quoted by Terry "to get an FIA record", but with the money spent overseas (in Paris) subtracted.  In other words it is an amount an American currently has to spend with an American organisation to gain two World Records that are  recognised worldwide.  So I guess its at the 'Shootout' event, with the shared costs of all entrants (such as track preparation) included.

A World record is one that anyone, in any Country on earth, can challenge under operationl rules which are applied worldwide by applying to a single organisation, which attends and overseas the bid as an independent party.

[And of course I do not mean Guinness! ]   

[Sumner]

From the Shootout web site:

"The shootout was established by Cook’s Land Speed Events in 2006 specifically to accommodate racers seeking to challenge existing FIA and FIM certified world land speed records for cars and motorcycles"

So would Mike Cook even be interested in running an event without FIA/FIM officials present?

And if he did run such an event, would anyone turn up?

It was a bad choice on my part to use Cook as an example as I'd bet he wants to keep his meets FIA/FIM although I think that some enter with no intention of running for a FIM/FIA record.  They are there to get a time since they either don't fit a class in SCTA, fail to  meet SCTA safety requirements or want a 2 way average speed.`

And if he ran his meet with the option of 'do you want to be recognized with a FIA/FIM sanctioned record or not' I'd say yes there would be people show up that wanted a 2 way record over the same ground and would be happy with that record even if it wasn't recognized by the FIA/FIM especially if it cost them a lot less to do it.  If cost wise the difference was only a couple hundred dollars then I'd say no.

At this point in the discussion I don't know how much more it adds per entry at an event to have your record certified FIM/FIA.  I'm basing some of this on TN's interview.

I respect the fact that most Europeans think in the terms of only FIA/FIM records, but feel a number of Americans and maybe others would respect a legitimate record that wasn't.  Most on this site probably only know one FIA/FIM record and that is just the overall top speed for a bike or car.  Many are quite familiar with SCTA records in different classes where I'd imagine most others around the world aren't.

Sumner

[TrickyDicky]

Genuine question: we have FIA records for those that want whatever FIA recognition gives them; we have SCTA records which seem to satisfy the needs of those who would "dump" FIA; is there really a need for two way records sanctioned by some other body?

[Sumner]

.......... is there really a need for two way records sanctioned by some other body?

Maybe, yes and I thought that was what this has all been about.  The option for two way averages that then are in the same format as in the past but not recognized by the FIA/FIM but still done in a way that 'most' of us would except.

No need if the FIA/FIM expense is not adding a lot to the record, but maybe needed if it is as Terry has implied.

I guess the question, and I don't have the answer, is how much more does the FIA/FIM recognition cost a participant at say Mike's meet.  Above the other costs of the meet. Is it reasonable, whatever that is, or what some of us would call unreasonable (thousands of dollars).  Would anyone that has been down that road want to comment?

I'm sure some will always want that recognition and I can completely understand that, but some might not, and to me if I trust the timing their achievement is not diminished by not having it.

Sumner

[maj]

FIM is not comparable in cost to FIA


Take the motorcycle speed trials  as an example, its about $200 more to enter FIM than AMA
and ratification is under (or was in previous yrs)$500

To run FIM at Cooks is more expensive, but you expect that , its all down to numbers

As an international entrant part of the reason i run FIM is insurance, My national motorcycling association has a compulsary insurance before they issue FIM licences   that among other things included getting me home in case of a big incident   

[Sumner]

FIM is not comparable in cost to FIA


Take the motorcycle speed trials  as an example, its about $200 more to enter FIM than AMA
and ratification is under (or was in previous yrs)$500

To run FIM at Cooks is more expensive, but you expect that ,...

Those are resonable amounts.  Is the FIM more at Mike's meet or just the overall cost to enter.  I can see the cost to enter as there aren't near as many entries to cover all the costs of putting on the meet. 

Thanks for the input,

Sumner