Author Topic: Hood scoop questions  (Read 17392 times)

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Offline SPARKY

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Re: Hood scoop questions
« Reply #15 on: June 14, 2014, 10:49:57 AM »
There is rumor that F-I guys are doing a version of it by where the hold their helmet  in front of the intake scoop.
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Offline Sumner

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Re: Hood scoop questions
« Reply #16 on: June 14, 2014, 11:35:21 AM »
....When you size the scoop inlet to CFM with the column of air hypothesis what happens is the engine will reduce the air pressure inside the scoop, you will have a lower air density and you WILL lose HP especially at lower mph! The CFM matches just fine [at the design speed only] but you will have less molecules of air in each cubic foot. If the opening is too big then the engine can't keep up and you get spillage out of the scoop and higher drag. Several other interacting factors come into play! Scoops are Simple - NOT! In some cases the lower HP may have aided traction in the launch but it will cost mph on the far end. Most scoops tend to increase HP some but do you want 50%, 75% or 100% of the potential?  :? That's just my three cents!  :-D

Adding to Woody's thoughts I'd personally not size the scoop for an "exact" size CFM wise in high gear.  I'd size it for the gear where you are able to run WOT and need maximum HP.  For a small motor car the need for a larger scoop opening might be in one of the lower gears where the car is needing to make maximum HP.  

In our case so far that situation isn't until we are running our 1 to 1 3rd gear.  Even then our scoops have been sized over 10% larger than needed using the CFM required formula that I posted.  Still when you look at the scoops we have used they will look quite small compared to what people are use to looking at when watching cars at the drags where they can use HP at much lower speeds.  

I also wouldn't size the scoop the same way for one of the mile tracks as you would for the salt as there again you can use the HP in lower gears with the better traction so you don't want to restrict that HP as Woody mentioned.

Size the opening for the first gear where you can use full engine HP with the exception if that is going to hinder drag in the final gear to the point where you would give up some HP at a slower speed to help with drag and the HP needed to overcome it at your terminal speed.

An example of some of this is Speed Demon's inlet opening size...



.... not that large for a car that can make up to 2500 HP, but the car is not to WOT until 380 mph and probably not making maximum HP until past that if at all.

So far here we are talking about the scoop opening only.  Once the air gets into the scoop you have another whole bunch of theories coming into play.  That is Woody's domain  :-).  Go back and look at the Nish streamliner over the years and you will see a lot of different shaped scoops with very different internal volumes past the inlet.  A couple were huge in size past the inlet.

...I need to ask a question.

A turbo charger spinning at full boost will take in a certain amount of air but will a scoop increase that volume?.

What I'm getting at is will more air forced in just stack up at the intake?.

It will stack up if the opening is too large and have to spill around it.  You can get a charge effect but I don't think I've ever seen this over 2 lbs..  Still even if it is 1 lb. and you are blown that is just 1 less pound the blower is going to have to make so you will have lower air temps after the compressor which lowers the load on the intercooler.

Sum
« Last Edit: June 14, 2014, 11:37:43 AM by Sumner »

Offline Rex Schimmer

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Re: Hood scoop questions
« Reply #17 on: June 14, 2014, 03:00:49 PM »
If you can get your hands on issues 162 and 164 (May and July of 2014) there are a couple of articles on air scoop design written by Marco deLuca and Angelo Camerini, both former heads of aerodynamics at Ferrari and BMW. You probably will need to read a couple of times but lots of good info and they also discuss inlets into turbos, which do benefit from a properly designed inlet. Pretty good stuff.

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Offline Sumner

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Re: Hood scoop questions
« Reply #18 on: June 14, 2014, 03:23:04 PM »
If you can get your hands on issues 162 and 164 (May and July of 2014) .....

Issues of what Rex?  Thanks,

Sumner

Offline tortoise

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Re: Hood scoop questions
« Reply #19 on: June 14, 2014, 04:21:09 PM »
Race Tech magazine

Offline tauruck

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Re: Hood scoop questions
« Reply #20 on: June 15, 2014, 12:11:14 AM »
Ducts vs scoops?.

Danny Thompson is going to use ducts.

I like his idea better for my application.

Offline Rex Schimmer

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Re: Hood scoop questions
« Reply #21 on: June 15, 2014, 12:20:36 AM »
Sorry Sum, Tortoise is right it is "Race Tech" magazine.

Thanks,Tortoise!

Rex
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Offline WOODY@DDLLC

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Re: Hood scoop questions
« Reply #22 on: June 15, 2014, 12:39:50 AM »
To Slim's point: The basic function of a scoop is to collect air. If it has no outlet you get max pressure [and spillage]. If you add a "leak" aka the engine then the air has a place to go but the pressure will go down. If you add another leak in the back of the scoop you just stole some air from the first leak and the pressure will go even lower! :-(

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Re: Hood scoop questions
« Reply #23 on: June 15, 2014, 09:54:25 AM »
Okay, Woody -- you're part way to answering my query.

Now that we've established that a port at the rear (or someplace) of a scoop will reduce the pressure inside of it -- how about if we are careful to adjust the size of that port, while on the fly, to maintain just enough positive pressure to realise a gain - and to NOT have excess spilling back out the front and creating a pressure/drag?  At low speeds it'd be closed, and as the speed increases it would open in conjunction with increasing speed (probably as measured by a sensor or two or three, inside and outside the scoop and also perhaps programmed to stay within some certain and preset parameters) to maintain just the right balance between wasted air and too little air in the scoop (vacuum)?
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Offline jl222

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Re: Hood scoop questions
« Reply #24 on: June 15, 2014, 10:55:23 AM »

  OK..what size scoop for 4500 cfm. 29in tires 1.85 gearing 500 cu. in.? :-D

   IF I stick my fist in the inlet tubing while idling the 222 Camaro it sucks my arm in. If I dared to whack the throttle I think it would spit me out the exhaust :-o

         JL222 :cheers:

Offline tortoise

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Re: Hood scoop questions
« Reply #25 on: June 15, 2014, 12:00:08 PM »
. . . as the speed increases it would open in conjunction with increasing speed (probably as measured by a sensor or two or three, inside and outside the scoop and also perhaps programmed to stay within some certain and preset parameters) to maintain just the right balance between wasted air and too little air in the scoop (vacuum)?

At design top speed, you'd have a larger inlet, higher drag than a system with an internal airflow just sufficient to pressurize the engine. Much simpler, and lower drag at design speed, would be an inlet enlarging at low speed, (or a secondary inlet, like a musclecar "air grabber" scoop,) closing as top speed approaches.

Offline Sumner

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Re: Hood scoop questions
« Reply #26 on: June 15, 2014, 12:02:17 PM »

  OK..what size scoop for 4500 cfm. 29in tires 1.85 gearing 500 cu. in.? :-D

   IF I stick my fist in the inlet tubing while idling the 222 Camaro it sucks my arm in. If I dared to whack the throttle I think it would spit me out the exhaust :-o

         JL222 :cheers:


What boost level so I don't have to make a new spreadsheet using the cfm figure  :-).

With 30 lbs. boost and the other info (not the cfm) and with a 10% oversize about 18 square inches, about 5 inch dia. if round.  If an oval scoop 3 inches high in the middle with rounded ends (1.5 inch radius) the middle section between the rounded ends would be 3.6 inches long so the width of the scoop would be 6.6 inches.

20% over size would be about 20 sq. inches.  I'd probably go with 20-22 sq. inches if it was my car, which it isn't  :-D,

Sum

Offline Sumner

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Re: Hood scoop questions
« Reply #27 on: June 15, 2014, 12:04:36 PM »
..... (or a secondary inlet, like a musclecar "air grabber" scoop,) closing as top speed approaches.

If you need the air at the lower speeds I'd like that approach,

Sum

Offline John Burk

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Re: Hood scoop questions
« Reply #28 on: June 15, 2014, 12:59:01 PM »
May have mentioned this before . On the very front of streamlined bodies there is an area that sees full impact pressure
at all speeds . A small area sees 100% and a larger area sees 90% etc . The pressure is already there so inlet doesn't need to be sized and works in all gears . The vertical peak of my nose has a larger area with near peak pressure . 

http://www.motorsportsinnovations.com/Bvile-pics/bs%20nose%203-07%20(1)_small.jpg

Ducting would be a problem if the engine wasn't in front .

Offline Sumner

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Re: Hood scoop questions
« Reply #29 on: June 15, 2014, 01:25:27 PM »
May have mentioned this before . On the very front of streamlined bodies there is an area that sees full impact pressure
at all speeds . A small area sees 100% and a larger area sees 90% etc . The pressure is already there so inlet doesn't need to be sized and works in all gears . The vertical peak of my nose has a larger area with near peak pressure . 

http://www.motorsportsinnovations.com/Bvile-pics/bs%20nose%203-07%20(1)_small.jpg

Ducting would be a problem if the engine wasn't in front .

Sam took that approach with E-Z-Hook ....





I looked at it for my lakester and would love to do it but like you said getting the air ducted past me is a problem,

Sum