Author Topic: Vintage Engine Approved Crank Triggered Ignitions  (Read 10443 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline xxobuick

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 77
Vintage Engine Approved Crank Triggered Ignitions
« on: May 29, 2014, 06:39:16 PM »
Hello, So we are trying to decide which ignition system to run this year, I would like to know what crank triggered systems have been passed by record certification so I can get some ideas on what is legal to run.  The consensuses that you can run any system as long as it doesn't receive inputs from the engine, or car such as traction control, boost retard, knock sensors is not true according to my email from scta board members. 

So just sorta looking for ideas on what others have run in vintage.

Coil On Plug options?

Offline FoundSoul

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 106
  • MegaSquirt Your Mind!
    • DIYAutoTune.com
Re: Vintage Engine Approved Crank Triggered Ignitions
« Reply #1 on: May 30, 2014, 12:25:34 AM »
We'd be glad to help you on that...  you can run pretty much any crank trigger wheel/sensor you want with the MS3-Pro, and coil on plug is no problem at all.  We have some ridiculously hot coils that I'm running on my car as well, which will be out there this year for it's maiden voyage on the salt.  Have taken it up to Ohio twice now and just claimed the F/BGC record there earlier this month.  They're not COPs, but are still coil-per-plug with short plug wires.  I mounted mine on a fab'd up bracket up above the fuel rail next to the valve covers on my motor. 

EMS here:  http://www.diyautotune.com/ms3-pro.html

Coils here:  http://www.diyautotune.com/catalog/ign1a-race-coil-p-394.html

Pics of my engine bay (pic credit to GKABBT)


Jerry a.k.a. 'FoundSoul'
http://www.DIYAutoTune.com and http://AMPEFI.com
13 Records total held at the ECTA Ohio Mile (as of 9/2015)
Fastest so far-- AA/BGC Record @ 217.3913mph September 2015  -- MS3Pro Engine Management and a little 3.0 liter

Congrats to our customers:
Lee Sicilio - 1969 Daytona Charger #97 - Bonneville A/BGALT Record Holder - 273.514mph - MegaSquirt-3 EFI and Ignition Control
Gary Hart - 1953 Studebaker #787 - Bonneville AA/BGALT Record Holder - 240.984mph - MegaSquirt-1 EFI and Ignition Control
Frank Kinney - Black Opel Racing #6666 - Bonneville E/GMS Recond Holder - 208.974mph - MegaSquirt-3 EFI and Ignition Control

Offline NathanStewart

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1241
Re: Vintage Engine Approved Crank Triggered Ignitions
« Reply #2 on: June 03, 2014, 05:01:17 PM »
Sounds like you didn't like the answer that you got from officials so now you're fishing for the answer you want to hear.  Why not show up with whatever ignition you want and when you get protested just tell them the general consensus says it's okay to use computers in vintage?  I'm sure you'll be okay.  Oh and it seems that the Electromotive XDI timing control computer is the racers choice for vintage ignitions.   
El Mirage 200 MPH Club Member

Offline NathanStewart

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1241
Re: Vintage Engine Approved Crank Triggered Ignitions
« Reply #3 on: June 03, 2014, 05:07:54 PM »
On second thought, go with Jerry's MegaSquirt.  Its a full engine management system but you can just use it to run just an ignition.  I wonder what kind of engine management systems they used back in the 40's and 50's?  Maybe Motec or AEM or Haltec or an MSD DIS? 
El Mirage 200 MPH Club Member

Nick Flores

  • Guest
Re: Vintage Engine Approved Crank Triggered Ignitions
« Reply #4 on: June 05, 2014, 09:21:53 PM »
I think the original question is fairly straight forward. What systems have been used in cars/on engines, in VINTAGE, that have set and certified a record? Sounds to me like he's trying to avoid a protest/other trouble...

Offline xxobuick

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 77
Re: Vintage Engine Approved Crank Triggered Ignitions
« Reply #5 on: June 05, 2014, 10:53:05 PM »
Sounds like you didn't like the answer that you got from officials so now you're fishing for the answer you want to hear.  Why not show up with whatever ignition you want and when you get protested just tell them the general consensus says it's okay to use computers in vintage?  I'm sure you'll be okay.  Oh and it seems that the Electromotive XDI timing control computer is the racers choice for vintage ignitions.   


Actually the officials (your dad) did not recommend any ignitions, the purpose of my original post is to get some recommendations from others (really the only purpose of this forum is for others helping others).  I can include the emails he sent me, to show that he did not provide any acceptable ignition systems that worked off of a crank trigger.  He did say that crank triggers were being used in the 40's and 50's in land racing though.

I am a novice in this game and purely coming here to seek advice from others with A LOT more experience than I, hence the reason for my original post.

Who is Jerry?

Running a hall sensor, with a amplifier such as a HEI module I believe to be accepted?  There is no processor according to Google, and my research, but I can be mistaken.  I am purely coming here for advice from others, not to undermine any official, just that the officials did not recommend any approved system.

Offline JR529

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 191
Re: Vintage Engine Approved Crank Triggered Ignitions
« Reply #6 on: June 05, 2014, 11:00:37 PM »
Who is Jerry?

Jerry is the guy in the second post who is trying to advertise his business on the forum without being a site sponsor.

Offline Buickguy3

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1026
Re: Vintage Engine Approved Crank Triggered Ignitions
« Reply #7 on: June 06, 2014, 11:30:29 AM »
   The Montana Dodge Boys have been through this discussion. Maybe ask them at www.montanadodgeboys.com  They may be able to shed some light. I think it was finally settled last year.
  Doug  :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
I keep going faster and faster and I don't know why. All I have to do is live and die.
                   [America]

Offline FoundSoul

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 106
  • MegaSquirt Your Mind!
    • DIYAutoTune.com
Re: Vintage Engine Approved Crank Triggered Ignitions
« Reply #8 on: June 06, 2014, 12:34:39 PM »
Jerry is the guy in the second post who is trying to advertise his business on the forum without being a site sponsor.

Thanks for the oh so gracious introduction....  

That's all I am, I'm sure you're right, some jerk off that wants to sell something and ripped off Slim in the process.  Or maybe I'm an LSR addict like many of you that's been on the salt every year except for one since 2006 crewing for customers and helping people that don't even run my stuff to be successful running whatever it is they're running.  I might be the guy who would be glad to sponsor this forum, just haven't gotten around to checking out the details.  I had been thinking about it though, and was thinking about donating an MS3-Pro EMS ($1200) to let Slim raffle it off or do whatever he'd like to raise some cash for the site.  Again, a lot going on, just hadn't made it happen yet.  I might also be the guy who often offers up help and sponsorships to land speed racers, to the point that honestly.. I don't think I make a dollar off of most of them.  I just love this stuff... had to build my own car over the last couple years that just recently took it's first record at Ohio, and heads to Bonneville in August.  

I've read that rule before too and it sounded to me like 'anything goes' in the ignition control area on vintage.  I'd agree that may not line up with what I'd imagine 'the spirit' of the vintage classes being, but as I read the rule, it looked legal to me so it's no wonder the OP had questions about it.  So when I saw a post where someone was looking for help with a crank triggered ignition, forgive me if I offered up some help.

If you ever see me running around spamming up forums that I don't sponsor feel free to get on my case then...  I think one post that offers someone some help falls outside of that however.
« Last Edit: June 06, 2014, 12:58:36 PM by FoundSoul »
Jerry a.k.a. 'FoundSoul'
http://www.DIYAutoTune.com and http://AMPEFI.com
13 Records total held at the ECTA Ohio Mile (as of 9/2015)
Fastest so far-- AA/BGC Record @ 217.3913mph September 2015  -- MS3Pro Engine Management and a little 3.0 liter

Congrats to our customers:
Lee Sicilio - 1969 Daytona Charger #97 - Bonneville A/BGALT Record Holder - 273.514mph - MegaSquirt-3 EFI and Ignition Control
Gary Hart - 1953 Studebaker #787 - Bonneville AA/BGALT Record Holder - 240.984mph - MegaSquirt-1 EFI and Ignition Control
Frank Kinney - Black Opel Racing #6666 - Bonneville E/GMS Recond Holder - 208.974mph - MegaSquirt-3 EFI and Ignition Control

Offline Sumner

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 4078
  • Blanding, Ut..a small dot in the middle of nowhere
    • http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/sumnerindex.html
Re: Vintage Engine Approved Crank Triggered Ignitions
« Reply #9 on: June 06, 2014, 01:08:59 PM »
.... Or maybe I'm an LSR addict like many of you that's been on the salt every year except for one since 2006 crewing for customers and helping people that don't even run my stuff to be successful running whatever it is they're running. ....

Jerry has been there for us and never asked for anything in return.  Look forward to seeing him run this year and I'll be running his stuff on my lakester,

Sum




Offline JR529

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 191
Re: Vintage Engine Approved Crank Triggered Ignitions
« Reply #10 on: June 06, 2014, 03:29:26 PM »
Jerry is the guy in the second post who is trying to advertise his business on the forum without being a site sponsor.

Thanks for the oh so gracious introduction....  
.....  I might be the guy who would be glad to sponsor this forum, just haven't gotten around to checking out the details....

Since 2008?

But in all seriousness, I have seen your stuff around and you do help a lot of people out. But you have to admit your earlier post in this thread was pretty much an ad in disguise.  :-P

Offline NathanStewart

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1241
Re: Vintage Engine Approved Crank Triggered Ignitions
« Reply #11 on: June 11, 2014, 01:56:56 AM »
I think the original question is fairly straight forward. What systems have been used in cars/on engines, in VINTAGE, that have set and certified a record? Sounds to me like he's trying to avoid a protest/other trouble...

That's the thing.  It isn't straight forward.  There have been a number of records, in VINTAGE, set by cars that have used computerized crank trigger ignition systems.  Obviously, the idea behind the vintage class is to use vintage equipment but what happens when one guy sets a record with a non-vintage computerized distributorless ignition system??  Everybody wants one and rightfully so because if that guy can set a record with a computer then why can't I?  The thinking that because someone else got away with it (got a record certified) so it somehow means its legal for everyone else is flawed thinking.  Unfortunately, there have been lots of records given to cars of questionable legality.  The system isn't perfect so it happens and it's seemed to have happened a lot in vintage. 

So, knowing that there are issues with computerized ignition systems in vintage (specifically vintage engines in vintage bodies to be clear), I personally highly suggest staying away from any kind of ignition that could be deemed a computer otherwise you risk being protested.  If the system uses a "timing control computer" that allows you to "map" out the ignition timing through any kind of interface including a screwdriver adjusting a potentiometer, it's a computer.  Technically, you can trigger an MSD 6A box to fire a pair of coils at TDC with a single magnet in a trigger wheel.  This would be legal for vintage because there's no computer to control the ignition timing but seems rather impractical if you're running a straight 8 because you'd need four CDI boxes and four sensors on the crank.  Oh, and you'd have fixed timing.

The other thing you can do is use a crank trigger as a points replacement.  This would be your typical MSD crank trigger setup that has four magnets in a crank wheel.  Four magnet triggers times two revs per cycle gets you 8 ignition events.  You'd then use a distributor to "distribute" the spark to the appropriate cylinder - but again, you'd have fixed timing unless you added in something to control the timing but that device would most likely be considered a computer.  Basically, you can't have a crank trigger ignition that has any kind of timing control without using a computer. 

It's clear in the rule book that computers aren't allowed.  A bunch of people have decided to try and convince the rest of the world that there are some magical unwritten rules that say that because their computerized ignition doesn't do traction control or use a knock sensor or change the ignition timing based on air fuel ratio (which isn't even a thing but their system don't do it so it can't possibly be a computer) that they're legal.  You've obviously heard these magic unwritten rules because you stated nearly word for word in your first post.  You'll have a hard time getting through a protest citing rules that say you can use a computer if it doesn't do this or that if those rules don't exist.

I really can't see how an official is supposed to be able to tell you what kind of ignition system you should use.  Are they supposed to know what ignitions are available for a Buick straight 8?  If a recommendation was made and you went out and got that ignition and it didn't work for some reason, would the person who recommended it then be liable for your cost?  Are the committee reps supposed to be ignition experts and know everything about crank trigger ignitions and what Mallory, MSD, Accel, etc etc etc makes and what's legal and what's not??  Crank triggers were not used in the 40's and 50's.  I'm supposing that there's a mix up in "crank trigger" ignitions and "coil on plug" ignitions.  The Model T had four individual ignition coils.  Say what?!?!?  A coil-per-plug ignition from the 20's??  It is true but a Model T didn't use a crank trigger and computer to control the ignition timing advance.  It used four sets of points and a lever on the steering wheel to control timing.  Point is that an individual coil ignition system is nothing new to the vintage class considering that Model T's came stock with four coil ignition system.   

El Mirage 200 MPH Club Member

Offline NathanStewart

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1241
Re: Vintage Engine Approved Crank Triggered Ignitions
« Reply #12 on: June 11, 2014, 02:23:54 AM »
Running a hall sensor, with a amplifier such as a HEI module I believe to be accepted?  There is no processor according to Google, and my research, but I can be mistaken.  I am purely coming here for advice from others, not to undermine any official, just that the officials did not recommend any approved system.

See, now you're really digging into making an ignition system.  Everyone else has used an off the shelf computerized ignition system that they don't even understand how it works nor do they comprehend that it's a computer and it sounded like you were venturing down the same trail with your topic title.  I apologize for being so brash with my first reply but I'm honestly disgusted with the state of the vintage engine category and disgusted with those who continue to push for these very un-vintage systems to be allowed.

What you're suggesting with the sensor and HEI module would seem to be legal IMO.  The sensor triggers the HEI and the HEI triggers the coil.  Super simple.  But how are you going to make that work?  Eight sensors to fire eight coils?  Or perhaps pair them up and run waste spark?  The only thing you're really gaining by triggering the ignition off of the crank is more accurate ignition control.  This would really only be beneficial if your current ignition system is already inaccurate and you're getting inconsistent timing between cylinders.  Now, going with individual coils will benefit you in that you can run more dwell and get more spark energy out of the coil because you're only having to charge and discharge the coil once (for sequential ignition) or twice (for waste spark) per cycle instead of 8 times like with a distributor.  But you can make up for the loss in coil energy output at high rpm with a distributor by using a CDI.  A CDI system doesn't really "dwell" the coils any real considerable period of time.  It simply blasts the coil primary with 500v for a very short period (1-2 milliseconds) giving you a fairly intense spark output.  CDI ignitions were the answer for high rev'ing V8's in the 70's that ran out of ignition juice with regular inductive ignition systems.  Sorry for the history lesson.  It's stuff you probably already know but it's worth mentioning since you're talking about piecing something together.

I'd be interested in hearing what you have in mind and how you plan to implement it.  And back to the officials not recommending an ignition system, do you think those old farts know what a hall sensor is or how an HEI module works?  They're still using mags with points in them.  I'm surprised they know how to turn on a computer and send an email.  I'm being facetious but in all seriousness, they're not ignition experts and they probably couldn't tell you what kind of crank trigger ignition is okay to use but if you wanted to know if a particular Harmins and Collins mag was okay I'm sure they'd have an answer for you.

 
El Mirage 200 MPH Club Member

Offline Speed Limit 1000

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1398
Re: Vintage Engine Approved Crank Triggered Ignitions
« Reply #13 on: June 11, 2014, 07:21:40 AM »
Maybe you could use a magneto? I am 2000 miles from home and my rule book, but I think they are pre WWII,
is it OK to run one in vintage? When did the use of a mechanical advance come into use? I think this forum is the greatest place to find great information about anything from racers around the world. Thanks to Jon squared we have this opportunity :cheers:
John Gowetski, red hat @ 221.183 MPH MSA Lakester, Bockscar #1000 60 ci normally aspirated w/N20

Nick Flores

  • Guest
Re: Vintage Engine Approved Crank Triggered Ignitions
« Reply #14 on: June 11, 2014, 03:52:09 PM »
I think the original question is fairly straight forward. What systems have been used in cars/on engines, in VINTAGE, that have set and certified a record? Sounds to me like he's trying to avoid a protest/other trouble...

 Are the committee reps supposed to be ignition experts and know everything about crank trigger ignitions and what Mallory, MSD, Accel, etc etc etc makes and what's legal and what's not?? 



Nathan, I chopped out the rest of your reply because this stuck out to me... If I had to answer this question, my response would be YES! It should be expected that the official knows, at minimum, what is legal and what is not.