Author Topic: Altered Class with Pre 82 bodies  (Read 33222 times)

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Offline Saltfever

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Re: Altered Class with Pre 82 bodies
« Reply #60 on: October 13, 2014, 12:11:06 AM »
Opps, bad picture.
I purposely brightened and washed out unnecessary stuff. The red crank trigger shows up better here underneath the water pump.

Offline Saltfever

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Re: Altered Class with Pre 82 bodies
« Reply #61 on: October 13, 2014, 04:01:38 AM »
I just checked my Speed Week 2006 pics and here is the same car (in Impound as usual,  :-)) with a non-stock MSD crank trigger. So it is pretty clear, for the past 4-6 years a Classic Category car has been setting records with a aftermarket crank trigger.  

PS: I am not saying this car is illegal. It is perfectly legal. The rules allow CDI ignition with rev limiter. But then later say sensor controlled ignitions are allowed and shall be stock and not modified in any way for year and model of the vehicle entered.   Clearly the bottom of page 70 needs to be edited and "EFI" added in front of "sensor controlled . . . "
« Last Edit: October 13, 2014, 04:27:56 AM by Saltfever »

Offline jlmccuan

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Re: Altered Class with Pre 82 bodies
« Reply #62 on: October 13, 2014, 08:06:17 PM »
I believe they are talking about air intake temp sensors, knock sensors, O2 sensors, air flow sensors, etc that vary the timing and air fuel mixture in response to engine output and environment conditions.  Not talking about the pickups used in crank triggers as they don't modify the way the engine is tuned on the fly.

An example is that knock sensors can be used to indicate detonation but not to pull back the timing, trigger water injection, or richen up the A/F.  Sensor controlled does not just refer to EFI.


Sensors may be used to log any and all conditions but may not change the way the engine is operating on the fly.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2014, 08:18:15 PM by jlmccuan »
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Offline Sumner

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Re: Altered Class with Pre 82 bodies
« Reply #63 on: October 14, 2014, 10:08:29 AM »
...  Not talking about the pickups used in crank triggers as they don't modify the way the engine is tuned on the fly. ...

Seems like this discussion has come up before about the crank triggers and I thought that they were available and used prior to '82 so ok to use but don't quote me on that.  As was mentioned previously going with a lakester build means there is a lot of the rule book you don't have to become familiar with  :-D,

Sumner

Offline JR529

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Re: Altered Class with Pre 82 bodies
« Reply #64 on: October 14, 2014, 11:52:55 AM »
What I meant was the way the rule is written it would allow pre-81 EFI stuff to be legal....it appears they didn't want to accidentally excommunicate an OEM application they may not know about.

Exactly. Saying a 1981 or earlier car with factory EFI in completely stock configuration is illegal to race in classic would be silly so that is why the exception exists. There are a few vehicles out there as Bosch had their Jetronic systems available pre-82. But that is also why the rule requires them to remain stock if used. That requirement essentially kills them for use in a race application. Just pull them off and put on carbs or mech injection.

Offline Stan Back

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Re: Altered Class with Pre 82 bodies
« Reply #65 on: October 14, 2014, 11:57:04 AM »
At last, the answer.
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Offline MrEracer

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Re: Altered Class with Pre 82 bodies
« Reply #66 on: October 14, 2014, 12:39:39 PM »
The LSX combo with EFI in a Monza will have to run in the MODIFIED category, ALTERED classes(because of the non-OEM frame).

The no EFI restriction in the classic classes does indeed refer to the body as Jim Dinceau remembers. Engine swaps are allowed in many, many classes but it is the body that places the car in the correct class by year break.

DW

Hello DW,
  Please do not take offence to my question, I'm a noob in LSR.  The comment about the non OEM frame kicking me out of classic category has been bothering me since I read it.  Can you please site the rule that states that non OEM frames are not allowed in Classic.  The only thing I can find regarding frames is in the general section that states:

2.C FRAMES/CHASSIS:
Except where specifically forbidden by class rules, any design frame may be used. The frame design is subject to the approval of the Contest Board and shall be of sufficient strength to resist flex or twist. The burden of proof of the strength of the frame design lies with the entrant.

  I do not see any frame limitations in the Classic catagory rules.  Can you provide clarification on this...  On the slim chance that I would run a carb and distributor on my LSX I'd like to know if the frame makes this impossible.  I would be happy to submit my frame to the Contest Board for review.  On a side note, I do not see where the frame gives me any advantage (except for safety due to strength and rigidity over the unibody), its just that the car has been built with it and it would be near impossible to change it.  I will be happy to run Modified Altered if I have to...
Regards,
SD
 
Shirl Dickey
Veteran, U.S. Army Airborne, '61-'64
Retired Aerospace Engineer, BSME, UofU, 1970
Circle boat racer, '68-'82 and '10 to present (SK and Comp Jet)
Dirt Bike racer, '66-'84 (MotoX and Desert, big bore)
Aircraft racer, '83-'05 (Varieze and E-Racer)
Road race driver/instructor, '02-'12 (C5 Corvette, 600 hp)
Future LSR racer ('80 Sunbird, potential Altered Class)

Offline Dynoroom

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Re: Altered Class with Pre 82 bodies
« Reply #67 on: October 14, 2014, 01:26:33 PM »
If you look at the rule on page 70 5.C second paragraph starts with how the rules in classic follow the rules in modified and production categories.
Now flip over to page 75 under 5.D.3 the fifth paragraph is the requirements for the Gas Coupe class which includes the frame being the same year as as the body.

Enjoy your project

Michael LeFevers
Kugel and LeFevers Pontiac Firebird

Without Data You're Just Another Guy With An Opinion!

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Offline MrEracer

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Re: Altered Class with Pre 82 bodies
« Reply #68 on: October 14, 2014, 01:42:09 PM »
Dyno,
  Thanks for the info.  I see that the Classic Gas classes have frame restrictions, however, following this logic, the Altered class specifies the following:

Any frame may be used as long as the bottom line of the frame is not higher than the outer bottom line of the body between the firewall and the rear wheels.

  This would seem to indicate that 'any frame' meeting the stipulated conditions would be allowed in the Classic Altered class.  Agree or disagree?
SD
Shirl Dickey
Veteran, U.S. Army Airborne, '61-'64
Retired Aerospace Engineer, BSME, UofU, 1970
Circle boat racer, '68-'82 and '10 to present (SK and Comp Jet)
Dirt Bike racer, '66-'84 (MotoX and Desert, big bore)
Aircraft racer, '83-'05 (Varieze and E-Racer)
Road race driver/instructor, '02-'12 (C5 Corvette, 600 hp)
Future LSR racer ('80 Sunbird, potential Altered Class)

Offline Dynoroom

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Re: Altered Class with Pre 82 bodies
« Reply #69 on: October 14, 2014, 01:43:04 PM »
Correct
Michael LeFevers
Kugel and LeFevers Pontiac Firebird

Without Data You're Just Another Guy With An Opinion!

Racing is just a series of "Problem Solving" events that allow you to spend money & make noise...

Offline dw230

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Re: Altered Class with Pre 82 bodies
« Reply #70 on: October 14, 2014, 06:18:49 PM »
Mike pointed you to the correct area re: frame. As a point if we copied all the rules in the Modified Category to the Classic Category the rule book would be much bigger than it has to be. A simple sentence referring the builder to the Modified rules, which the Classic classes must follow, precludes this requirement.

My sentence, quoted by you, refers to your original plan to build a Classic Gas Coupe, OEM frame required.. The frame moves the car to the Altered class, any frame can be used. If I am correct you stated that you wanted to use EFI in your original plan. That is what I suggested would move you to Modified Category, Altered classes.

DW
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Offline MrEracer

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Re: Altered Class with Pre 82 bodies
« Reply #71 on: October 14, 2014, 08:02:26 PM »
Thanks for the clarification, I'm starting to understand my options better now.  Not sure which way I will go, but I'm partial to my EFI so chances are I'll head for Modified, Altered and since I have a lot of experience with E85 I might just jump in the deep end and go unblown fuel...
SD
Shirl Dickey
Veteran, U.S. Army Airborne, '61-'64
Retired Aerospace Engineer, BSME, UofU, 1970
Circle boat racer, '68-'82 and '10 to present (SK and Comp Jet)
Dirt Bike racer, '66-'84 (MotoX and Desert, big bore)
Aircraft racer, '83-'05 (Varieze and E-Racer)
Road race driver/instructor, '02-'12 (C5 Corvette, 600 hp)
Future LSR racer ('80 Sunbird, potential Altered Class)

Offline Saltfever

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Re: Altered Class with Pre 82 bodies
« Reply #72 on: October 14, 2014, 10:12:21 PM »
. . . On a side note, I do not see where the frame gives me any advantage (except for safety due to strength and rigidity over the unibody...

In our sport performance it is not all about the motor or aero. There is a 3rd variable and some say even a fourth. When you are driving on ice, pushing 200mph with 600lbs of down force on the front end, “variable” toe can be exciting! The Monza unibody construction (without even a front clip) is a flexi-flyer. A rigid frame that provides better drivability is definitely a performance advantage.  Some say the fourth variable is the size of the driver’s testicles.  :-D
Geeze . . . it was just a joke . . .let the flames begin  :cheers: