Ignition system with vintage engines

[xxobuick]

I know this is a pretty gray area, even when I have tried to ask officials last year at speedweek, couldn't get a definite answer.  Rule book states any ignition system can be used, but period correctness of vintage engines is also strictly enforced.  From the consensuses I see, as long as you do not have a processor controlling your spark plugs, anywhere in the system you should be ok.  But then I see guys who have certain MSD systems that you cant plug a laptop in to configure them, but inside some of the msd boxes they are using actually do have a micro processor and get passed certifications with records in vintage bodies with vintage engines.  So I am trying to see what is accepted. 

I am debating between two different systems.  Both use a crank trigger. 

The first system in an electromotive system HPV-1.  It uses a 60-2 crank wheel with a simple VR Sensor that then goes to the electromotive coil pack system that simply uses just potentiometer to set rev limits, timing advance, and timing curve.  There is no where to plug in a computer to adjust parameters.  It runs off of a wasted spark system (fires the compression cylinder and the opposing split overlap cylinder at the same time).

Here is a mockup video I have put in the lathe to show the operation:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k54p9HEG2BI


Here is the manual on this setup to show the operation:

http://www.electromotive-inc.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/hpv1.pdf



My next setup uses a simple Ford EDIS setup.  It basically uses the ignition setup found in about every ford from 95-2005.  Has a 36-1 tooth crank wheel, with a vr sensor that sends the signal to a Module that has NO adjustments, if used independently, as in a stock Ford system it has an input and an output on the the module and it sent the output to the Cars ECU, then modified the time of that signal and then sent back to the Module to advance or delay timing.  When used without an ECU this system simply works just like a HEI module and just takes the signal from the VR Sensor (which is also found in HEI GM Dizzys) and amplifies it to fire the coil. 

With the EDIS setup it fires the coil packs in a wasted spark system.  There is no interface with a laptop, etc.  I can do a mock up video of the EDIS on the lathe also to show how it works.


So my question is when does it go to far?  I mean if we want to go by totally vintage standards not even  microprocessor controlled data collection shouldn't be used.  So just trying to find where this line of something not being approved.

I know if you have a vintage engine in a non vintage body that the rules somewhat change, ie you can run electronic fuel injection in a streamliner with an XX0 engine, but not in a coupe. 

[V4F STR 60]

Actually, it's not really a 'gray' area.  It's more like a greenish, bluesy, opaque sort of hazy orange.  

I suggest you do a hard search on this site for the billions of posts on this subject over the past sixish years.  Grab a cocktail (or a bottle), a comfortable seat, and prepare to get inundated with endless rants, opinions, and assumptions about the "intent" of the rule.

Ignore them all.  They are all just opinions, rants, and assumptions.

As of last Fall, the "any ignition" verbiage stands true in the eyes of the SCTA board.  There have been numerous requests to change this rule over the past few years, but NONE have been approved by the board.

That being said, most everyone assumes that it WILL change at SOME point, so whatever you do, have a plan B.

The one thing that most EVERYONE agrees upon, even at this point, is that your ignition system cannot REACT to any input from your engine.  Examples of this would be a knock sensor, boost retard, etc.

I'm sure you will get numerous responses to this... all just opinions.  If you have ANY doubts, I suggest you contact a SCTA BOARD MEMBER directly.  I would recommend corresponding via email so you can print their response and keep it in your log book in case problems arise in the future.

Good luck!

Pedro  

[xxobuick]

Ok, I will email a SCTA member, I suspect Mike Stewart would be the correct guy to contact?



I have noticed that the main consensuses is to just have a ignition system that doesn't react to any inputs from the engine, or car.  Meaning once it is set from before you take off from the line, that's it, no adjusting or no adjustments can be made during the run.  I just heard of a V4F car last year that didn't pass certification because they ended up plugging a laptop into the MSD system between runs and someone turned them in and they got the record pulled.  I don't know if they had any other inputs from knock sensors, traction control devices, etc that contributed to the timing or not.

Thanks for your help.

[Stan Back]

I wonder if the manual advance lever stock on a Model A is legal.

[maguromic]

I thought this rule only applied to vintage engines in vintage bodies. Tony

[xxobuick]

Vintage engines in vintage bodies running vintage body classes? 

Or Vintage Engines in Vintage Bodies,  in all classes?

But for the sake of my original question, I am concerned with vintage classes.

[38flattie]

As Tony pointed out, this rule only applies to vintage engines in vintage bodies.

As Pedro pointed out, there will be a change at some point, clarifying this rule.

I really think the best thing you can do is contact Doug Robinson on the ignition you wish to run, and get a committee approval in writing. Make sure to put the ruling/answer in your log book!

[dw230]

I wrote a post on the subject. Buddy beat me to the reply so I will bow out.

DW

[jimmy six]

Nice question Mr. Back..... This pertains to vintage engines in vintage classes only.

       If it were my decision only mechanical advances would be allowed whether it would be by hand as the the  " A " s or by mechanical weights in the distributor including magnetos. You could choose locked advance too.

This would let aftermarket and stock based HEI types allowed because for the most part have weights.

I originally stood for "points only" types but was over ridden years ago and now it's getting tougher to police.

Vintage should mean vintage. Put anything you want on it and run out of vintage.......JD

[NathanStewart]

As of last Fall, the "any ignition" verbiage stands true in the eyes of the SCTA board.  There have been numerous requests to change this rule over the past few years, but NONE have been approved by the board.

Some of us tried to do things in a more gentlemanly manner and get the rule book wording back to its original intent which of course is to keep things vintage.  "We" were told over and over and over that we were right and that this situation was wrong but that the ways of the SCTA do not follow logic or reason and that it was more about emotion and politics than making a situation right.  So each time the rule re-wording came up it was successfully approved by the membership only to later be turned down - by one non-elected board member.  Remember that a new rule or rule revision must be motioned in and then seconded by singular board members.  The one member who wouldn't motion the proposed wording took it upon himself to go against what the membership had already approved - twice!  Last year a new rule was introduced that changes how things get voted on so that the membership has more voice over the board on things that affect the general membership (like rules) and this one member even went against this new rule. 

Really what it seems is that you guys that constantly refuse to own up to the fact that you're using computers have someone on the board that's more interested in looking out for your well being than enforcing what the class is supposed to be about.  But "we" have given up on being gentlemanly about this and instead of doing this administratively will probably just protest the first car that shows up to impound with one of these ignition systems.  That way, it'll go to the board for a full board vote and your protector won't be able to block the vote.  Then it comes down to how EVERYONE on the board thinks this should go and not just one person. 

You're right that it does still say "any" but there were some new words added that do a pretty good job of defining what a computer is and it does also still say that no computers are allowed (loggers aren't computers by the computer definition that's in the book now) in vintage.  You might want to take a close look at how your crank trigger ignitions work and see if they fall under what is clearly spelled out as being a computer. 

[desotoman]

As of last Fall, the "any ignition" verbiage stands true in the eyes of the SCTA board.  There have been numerous requests to change this rule over the past few years, but NONE have been approved by the board.

Some of us tried to do things in a more gentlemanly manner and get the rule book wording back to its original intent which of course is to keep things vintage.  "We" were told over and over and over that we were right and that this situation was wrong but that the ways of the SCTA do not follow logic or reason and that it was more about emotion and politics than making a situation right.  So each time the rule re-wording came up it was successfully approved by the membership only to later be turned down - by one non-elected board member.  Remember that a new rule or rule revision must be motioned in and then seconded by singular board members.  The one member who wouldn't motion the proposed wording took it upon himself to go against what the membership had already approved - twice!  Last year a new rule was introduced that changes how things get voted on so that the membership has more voice over the board on things that affect the general membership (like rules) and this one member even went against this new rule. 

Really what it seems is that you guys that constantly refuse to own up to the fact that you're using computers have someone on the board that's more interested in looking out for your well being than enforcing what the class is supposed to be about.  But "we" have given up on being gentlemanly about this and instead of doing this administratively will probably just protest the first car that shows up to impound with one of these ignition systems.  That way, it'll go to the board for a full board vote and your protector won't be able to block the vote.  Then it comes down to how EVERYONE on the board thinks this should go and not just one person. 

You're right that it does still say "any" but there were some new words added that do a pretty good job of defining what a computer is and it does also still say that no computers are allowed (loggers aren't computers by the computer definition that's in the book now) in vintage.  You might want to take a close look at how your crank trigger ignitions work and see if they fall under what is clearly spelled out as being a computer. 

Nathan,

Great post as usual. Please PM me this person's name who goes against everyone else. 

Thanks,

Tom G.

[Sumner]

I'm guessing from the posts above that the HPV-1 has or is being used but from Electromotive's description of it I'd say it has 'computer like' elements to it...

The heart of the HPV-1 is a digital chip called the HREIC, patent number RE 34,183 , which takes the electric pulses from the crankshaft sensor, identifies the two missing teeth and then keeps track of the remaining 58 teeth. The HREIC's hard wired logic determines engine speed and computes the spark advance from your knob settings. Setting the timing advance curve is a simple task that anyone can understand.

In addition to synchronizing and firing the plugs at the correct advance angle, the HREIC also computes the exact dwell to produce 8.5 amps of coil current. If it fails to hit exactly 8.5 amps when the plug fires, the HREIC starts the next charging cycle a little sooner or later, assuring that next time around it will be exactly 8.5 amps. This corrects any errors that are caused by battery voltage or coil temperature changes and insures maximum spark energy.

http://www.electromotive-inc.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/hpv1.pdf

Sum

[dw230]

Nathan,

There is no need for a protest. Your father and Mike Spacek certify each vintage engine once the gasoline and body have been certified. It is their names that are on the cert card. If they deny a record because of the ignition then it will before the board. Save your money.

DW

[panic]

your ignition system cannot REACT to any input from your engine

English is a foreign language here, yes?

[jl222]

  We ran 2 Electromotive units [16 plugs] and set records at El Mirage and some good time slips at Bville. They worked great except for the spark retard, I had it set at 7500 rpm, where the ignition is supposed to retard,  and when the overdrive clutch slipped and like being in neutral the engine went to 8500 caught a valve and blew one of the blowers off. Engine must have liked the retard. Still had a time of 288 with a 279 exit speed.
 This was in 1994 maybe Electromotive has made changes since then. otherwise ignition was great and settings for advance ECT just a turn of a nob.

            JL222