Author Topic: Probing for ideas for a FWD lakester  (Read 17199 times)

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Offline Sumner

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Re: Probing for ideas for a FWD lakester
« Reply #30 on: April 24, 2014, 01:16:07 PM »
Sum,

the QC diffs use a primary and a secondary gear set. The primary can either be 4.11 or 4.56 or a couple of others.  Then the secondary gear sets (the actual quick change ones) that slide in the back can be swapped as the primary multipliers to change that 4.11 into anything from about 2.xx up to 7.xx.



I'm not sure of the point you are making.  With the 4.11 or 4.56 type QC the ring gear is still attached to the axles and the pinion to it so the high pinion speeds since the ring gear is moving at wheel rpm.  The quick change gears are before the ring/pinion and don't effect the pinion rpm, the wheel speed does.

Personally I'd stay away from a circle track quick change if I was planning on running over 250.  The

http://www.wintersperformance.com/Xtremeliner%20Chart.pdf

Winters Xtremeliner with the 2.00 ring/pinion is what I'd be looking at for a fast car.  Hope to maybe have one myself at some point,

Sum

Offline jimmy six

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Re: Probing for ideas for a FWD lakester
« Reply #31 on: April 24, 2014, 09:28:24 PM »
I would use a Toyota Supra turbo 6. Excellent reliable HP and it would care which direct it was sitting in the car. BTW if your not willing to spend all you've got and max your credit cards you probably won't get a "hat". :<)
First GMC 6 powered Fuel roadster over 200, with 2 red hats. Pit crew for Patrick Tone's Super Stock #49 Camaro

Offline revolutionary

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Re: Probing for ideas for a FWD lakester
« Reply #32 on: April 25, 2014, 09:22:31 AM »
Sum,

the QC diffs use a primary and a secondary gear set. The primary can either be 4.11 or 4.56 or a couple of others.  Then the secondary gear sets (the actual quick change ones) that slide in the back can be swapped as the primary multipliers to change that 4.11 into anything from about 2.xx up to 7.xx.



I'm not sure of the point you are making.  With the 4.11 or 4.56 type QC the ring gear is still attached to the axles and the pinion to it so the high pinion speeds since the ring gear is moving at wheel rpm.  The quick change gears are before the ring/pinion and don't effect the pinion rpm, the wheel speed does.

Personally I'd stay away from a circle track quick change if I was planning on running over 250.  The

http://www.wintersperformance.com/Xtremeliner%20Chart.pdf

Winters Xtremeliner with the 2.00 ring/pinion is what I'd be looking at for a fast car.  Hope to maybe have one myself at some point,

Sum

Sorry, had to go back to your post again. Thought you were talking about engine rpm. BTW, the Xtremeliner with 2.00 is what I have now, used to have a Winters NASCAR QC. It is a very nice piece.
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Offline Boostedballs

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Re: Probing for ideas for a FWD lakester
« Reply #33 on: April 26, 2014, 03:18:00 PM »
I have been looking at circle track QC's not realizing that there were differences. What exactly is different about the LSR types? What kind of $ are we talking about for an LSR type?

Offline Sumner

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Re: Probing for ideas for a FWD lakester
« Reply #34 on: April 27, 2014, 12:38:06 AM »
I have been looking at circle track QC's not realizing that there were differences. What exactly is different about the LSR types? What kind of $ are we talking about for an LSR type?

The one difference is the ring gear/pinion gear ratio.  Circle track being over 4.00 usually.  Since the ring gear revolves at wheel speed/rpm the pinion speeds can get quite high regardless of the quick change gears being used to achieve the final overall ratio.

The LSR types usually have ratios taller (lower numerical) than 3.00 ring/pinion ratios.  It just depends on what your final speeds are going to be if you might have a problem or not.  Anyone welling to share what speeds thet have run with a 4.11 or lower QC?

Sum
« Last Edit: April 29, 2014, 10:30:05 AM by Sumner »

tom04

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Re: Probing for ideas for a FWD lakester
« Reply #35 on: April 29, 2014, 01:14:07 AM »
Hey Boosted, 
Where are you located in Nor Cal?  I am going to be starting a similar build when I get back from a motorcycle ride to Panama - and get the current car ready for El Mirage - and finish a remodeled on the house.  PM me.  We should hook up.  (I'm writing from a seedy hotel in Honduras right now.)

This should be easier than you might think.  You need the extremeliner rear because the dirt track QC won't get the ratio you need without going to a tire that is too big in my humble opinion.  You could get by with an overdrive trans, but that eats a lot of horsepower.  Then overdriving the QC enough to compensate for the wrong R&P again eats HP.  So just bite the bullet and get the extreme liner.

  You asked about price.  While you can buy the dirt track dirt track QC used all day for $1000, I have never found a secondhand xtremeliner.  Hopefully one of the other guys on the board can fill in the price, but I remember hearing around $4000 new when I checked 6ish months ago - but I don't remember if that was complete?

You are right about running the diff upside down to get everything to spin the right direction when you mount the motor backwards.  But you can't do that with a QC because it won't oil right without pumps and mods to the case.

Here is why I say it should be easy:  The center section of a QC is symmetrical - the pinion is in the center.  The carrier bearings that hold the spool are in the bells that bolt on either side.  You get the same effect of flipping the rear if you just swap the bells.  Basically, you are flipping the ring gear to the other side of the pinion but everything else stays the same and still oils like Winters designed it.  Some old QCs had a third pinion support bearing that would have prevented flipping the ring gear.  The extreme liner does not have the third bearing.

This is basically what winters does with the reverse rotation R&P for 4WD.  That set-up needs a special R&P so you don't drive off the coast side of the gear.  But you are mounting the motor backwards so you don't need a reverse rotation R&P.

At least that's what I think.  I haven't tried it yet.

Offline Boostedballs

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Re: Probing for ideas for a FWD lakester
« Reply #36 on: April 29, 2014, 05:02:25 PM »
I just got off the phone with Winters and talked to them about the fwd QC setup. They really couldn't give me much clarification on pinion rotation, ring gear location or whether or not the ring would need to be reverse cut. So before I write the check ($3800) for something I cannot use, here's a quick rundown of what I'm thinking:

-QC with 2.00:1 r&p standard rotation with ring gear relocated to the other side. ($100 worth of maching to housing per Winters rep)

-Dana 35 axles, tubes, steering components, brakes, etc. (donor Jeep Cherokee front axle)


******This is all based on my assumption that my setup will have the driveshaft facing forward with a counterclockwise rotation as seen from standing in front of the car. I believe that 4WD trucks have the front driveshaft rotating clockwise as seen from the front of the car, which requires them to have a reverse cut r&p. (?)

Now, I plan on running the car at B'ville mostly. What kind of suspension would be best for this? 4-link, leaf, or what?



« Last Edit: April 29, 2014, 06:18:18 PM by Boostedballs »

Offline Boostedballs

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Re: Probing for ideas for a FWD lakester
« Reply #37 on: April 29, 2014, 05:05:52 PM »
Hey Boosted, 
Where are you located in Nor Cal?

I'm near Sacramento

Offline Stan Back

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Re: Probing for ideas for a FWD lakester
« Reply #38 on: April 29, 2014, 07:25:11 PM »
I'd suggest you talk to these guys who dragged a Triumph body to 380 MPH with a turbo Chevy.
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Offline Boostedballs

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Re: Probing for ideas for a FWD lakester
« Reply #39 on: April 29, 2014, 08:46:25 PM »
I'd suggest you talk to these guys who dragged a Triumph body to 380 MPH with a turbo Chevy.

That is an impressive machine and I've read all about it. Hoping to get a good look at it this August!

Offline Peter Jack

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Re: Probing for ideas for a FWD lakester
« Reply #40 on: April 29, 2014, 09:00:02 PM »
The sketch you're showing is a streamliner, not a lakester. For the vehicle to be a lakester all four wheels must be totally exposed.

Pete

Offline SPARKY

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Re: Probing for ideas for a FWD lakester
« Reply #41 on: April 29, 2014, 10:56:08 PM »
What kind of suspension would be best for this? 4-link, leaf, or what?

none!
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Offline Boostedballs

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Re: Probing for ideas for a FWD lakester
« Reply #42 on: April 30, 2014, 12:13:56 AM »
The sketch you're showing is a streamliner, not a lakester. For the vehicle to be a lakester all four wheels must be totally exposed.

Pete

I know the pic shows it with the rear wheels inside the body and that makes it a streamliner, but I'm not completely committed to the lakester or the streamliner at this point. I'll probably go streamliner but I first want to sort out the drivetrain and whether or not to go fwd or RWD.

tom04

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Re: Probing for ideas for a FWD lakester
« Reply #43 on: April 30, 2014, 12:46:53 AM »
Boosted,
I'm going to order the QC setup I described when I get back.  (In Nicaragua now.). You can check it out if want before you order yours.  My shop is in Hayward.

Here's why I love your project:  You set your own goal (300mph) and you design and build your own rig to reach that goal.  Bonneville is kind of the last frontier where most of the cars were built by the guy driving them.  That alone is a great accomplishment.  Records are great but if that were the only goal, the sport would be limited to a very few high rollers.  I've got mad respect for the guys at the top, but my whole car will cost less than a freshen-up on a Mendeola transmission.  When you or I go 300mph we won't get a record.  But we will check a big box off our bucket lists.  And we will have done it in some hair brained contraption that we built ourselves!  That is why I love this sport and wish you the best of luck with your project.

Three points on your build that I thought about as well:

I'm going with no suspension as others have suggested, but still mounting the diff with a four-link to make it easier to dial in the alignment.

No engine-breaking is a must.  If you use an automatic, your trans guy should be able to handle that.  I used the real Art Carr from California Performance Transmissions for my Baja truggy and will likely go back to him.  (Though I am still on the fence about a touque converter.)

Scrub radius is a big deal.  But, only if you steer with your drive wheels.

Offline SPARKY

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Re: Probing for ideas for a FWD lakester
« Reply #44 on: April 30, 2014, 01:00:17 AM »
Scrub radius is a big deal.

Scrub radius is a big deal!!

Scrub radius is a big deal!!!     .

Miss LIBERTY,  changing T.K.I.  to noise, dust, rust, BLUE HATS & hopefully not scrap!!

"Security is mostly a superstition. It does not exist in nature, nor do the children of men as a whole experience it. Avoiding danger is no safer in the long run than outright exposure. Life is either a daring adventure or nothing."   Helen Keller

We are going to explore the racing N words NITROUS & NITRO!