Author Topic: Ford Axle Tubes on a GM 7.5 rear?????  (Read 13114 times)

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Offline Sumner

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Ford Axle Tubes on a GM 7.5 rear?????
« on: March 22, 2014, 12:08:41 PM »
I've decided to start a new thread here in the "Technical Discussion" area about the possibility of using the Ford axle tubes on the 7.5 GM rear.  For those that are wondering why not just stay with the GM rear as is we can't because it has c-clips to hold the axles in and they aren't allowed.  There are c-clip eliminator kits that are available to use with the rear and that might be the solution for some.  In my case and others we also want to change the rear's width to work with our car.  So if we can use Ford axle ends

Some have welded the ...


http://www.leadmineproducts.com/servlet/the-500/9-inch-Ford-Rearend/Detail

... Ford ends on like above but they are designed for 3 inch diameter tubes and the GM 7.5 has 2 5/8 inch dia. tubes so a spacer has to be made or some other route taken to make this work.  Also it will still only work if you want to end up with the same width or narrower rear when done.

I have a 7.5 rear now that I need to widen.  If the ....


http://www.leadmineproducts.com/servlet/the-584/3%22-Axle-Tube-with/Detail

....If I can cut the tubes on the GM at some point and weld these on after cutting them to length I'd have the Ford ends that I need and also the width that I need in one operation and at $80 a piece they are about the same price as just the ends.

I hope to order the tubes and cut the GM soon so should know if this is going to work or not.  Sparky has loaned me a bar and I'll buy or machine bushings to align the tubes.  I'll probably buy the bushings...


http://www.leadmineproducts.com/servlet/the-1005/Narrowing-Carrier-Bushings-Only/Detail


http://www.leadmineproducts.com/servlet/the-1001/Housing-End-Narrowing-Bushings/Detail

.... as they are about the same price as what the aluminum round stock will cost me to turn them (actually less).

Leadmineproducts also has axles that you can cut to length.  He is honest in saying they come from overseas but says he has sold tons to circle track guys and they have not been breaking them.  His are $300 with bearings and Moser for instance has custom axles for $470 with bearings.  I'll probably go the Moser route just to have a better feeling about things but I'm not totally sure about that at this point.  I like the idea of the...


http://www.leadmineproducts.com/servlet/the-363/9%22-Ford-28-Spline/Detail

... cut to fit and his axles come with three wheel bolt patterns. 5 on 4 1/2", 5 on 4 3/4" and 5 on 5" which might be of benefit for someone.  I'll probably never be over 800 HP so these are tempting.  For higher HP levels I'd for sure move to someone such as Moser.

After seeing Skip's....



... housing (I was going to say 'rear' but knew where that would go  8-) ) above I'm thinking he might of already gone this route.  Skip I hope you can get back to us on what exactly you did do.  It looks like on one side you might of slid on a larger diameter tube to work with the 4 link/spring brackets but I can't tell on the right side if you did the same. 

Also as Sparky pointed out to me on the phone yesterday if you could slide the tubes past each other for some distance that would make for a stronger double walled tube.  Why would you need this?  Say we wanted to put a wing above the axle on our lakesters for down-force and the logical place to possibly put the verticals to the wing would be to the axle itself.  Then the double wall axle might have merits.

I would think that someone else has already done this and if so maybe they will step up and tell us how it worked, if at all.

Sumner:

Second hijacking!

What a great idea. I have been thinking about this for a year and never thought of the two tubes nesting. I have a "D" motor Camaro so every 4% helps. I currently have a 9" and 4 built center sections. So far I have only used the 3:70 for the concrete mile and a 3:50 for Bonneville. Can you give me more details on how you figured you would do this? I.e. how much of the 7.5 tubes would you slide into the 9" tubes? Would you weld the inside edge to the existing 7.5 tubes or to the pumpkin? What are your thoughts on axles the 7.5 axles with bearings, seals and races that fit the Ford end tubes?

So it is not a total hijack. I ran an open rear, 9" with 3:50, 28" tires and was very happy with the handling of the car. I only make 492 hp at the flywheel and less hp at 4,900 ft. so we have not had a traction problem.

Thanks,

BR

Right now I'm think about seeing if I can cut the GM tubes off about 6 inches out from the center section.  Then cut the Ford tubes to the length I want so that they will slide on up to the center section.  Weld them to the center section and also plug weld them to the 6 inch 7.5 stubs. 

The Ford ends will take normal Ford bearings/seal/retainers.  I'll be using 28 spline axles that will work with the Torsen.  I have slid Ford 28 spline axles into the Torsen I have and they are the same spline,

Sumner

Offline John Burk

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Re: Ford Axle Tubes on a GM 7.5 rear?????
« Reply #1 on: March 22, 2014, 01:31:32 PM »
How about the ends from an 8" ford rear . They have smaller tubes .

Offline kiwi belly tank

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Re: Ford Axle Tubes on a GM 7.5 rear?????
« Reply #2 on: March 22, 2014, 02:11:15 PM »
"Sliding a tube over the 10 bolt tube & welding it to the housing".

The housing is cast iron, that's why the factory tubes are pressed into a hot housing & plug welded. A 360 weld will probably crack.
Also, don't assume the axle tubes are parallel to each other. Over the years I've seen everything from toe in to toe out on banjo axles that was machined right into the housing.
  Sid.

Offline Sumner

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Re: Ford Axle Tubes on a GM 7.5 rear?????
« Reply #3 on: March 22, 2014, 02:14:12 PM »
How about the ends from an 8" ford rear . They have smaller tubes .

I thought they were 3 inch also...

http://www.hotrod.com/techarticles/drivetrain/1308_ford_rear_axle/

Sum

Offline Sumner

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Re: Ford Axle Tubes on a GM 7.5 rear?????
« Reply #4 on: March 22, 2014, 02:41:07 PM »
"Sliding a tube over the 10 bolt tube & welding it to the housing".

The housing is cast iron, that's why the factory tubes are pressed into a hot housing & plug welded. A 360 weld will probably crack.
Also, don't assume the axle tubes are parallel to each other. Over the years I've seen everything from toe in to toe out on banjo axles that was machined right into the housing.
  Sid.

I have seen numerous tubes welded to the center section doing google searches for this ....

https://www.google.com/search?q=weld+axle+tubes+to+center+section&client=firefox-a&hs=Qs7&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&channel=sb&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=YdktU_KfOqOEyAHtn4DICw&ved=0CAkQ_AUoAQ&biw=1024&bih=611

... and you do need to use care to avoid the problem of cracking as you mentioned.  One person that has done this recommends ....

Quote
I have only used SMAW (stick welding) with E7018 3/32 electrodes or TIG welded them using ER70s filler wire

Mig welding is discouraged but I've found posts where people have done a number using a mig without a problem.  I'd strongly encourage anyone who is considering welding to the center section to do their homework and only do it if they feel comfortable doing it.  I'm still not sure what approach I'll take and moving out from the center would still work fine (doing all the welding on the tube only).

As you mentioned just because the tubes slide together does not mean they are parallel.  I'll be using a bar and even then the final test is how the axles actually feel/turn when done.  To get the tubes right one probably can't slide them very far into each other, but you don't need to.  Tubes are cut and butt welded all the time when narrowing a rear.  We are just transitioning from one size tube to another,

Sum
« Last Edit: March 22, 2014, 02:43:14 PM by Sumner »

Offline John Burk

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Re: Ford Axle Tubes on a GM 7.5 rear?????
« Reply #5 on: March 22, 2014, 05:30:25 PM »
I think 8 inch axle tubes are 2 3/4" . At least some step down smaller near the ends . The farther out the weld is the less the welding heat pulls the wheel bearing off center . The alignment fixture I made is a 1 3/4" tube with aluminum collars at the bearing caps and wheel bearing bores . Depending how the outer collar slides in and out after welding tells if the welding caused much misalignment . If needed heating a spot with the torch half way out the tube pulls the end in that direction .

Offline Ron Gibson

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Re: Ford Axle Tubes on a GM 7.5 rear?????
« Reply #6 on: March 22, 2014, 06:04:07 PM »
Just a couple of thoughts. I don't know for sure about 8" tubes, don't have any. There are several different sizes of tubes for 9" housings, depending on application. I have 3'',3.125 and 3.250 OD's. Also the center housing came in different shapes and strengths.  I think the 3.250's  come out of pickups with a stronger center section. On some of the earlier (60's ?Mustangs) housings, I think the tube was smaller than 3" and swagged to a different, smaller size at the bearing end. Don't have any or know what sizes they were.

After welding, I would make sure the bearing spacers at the ends slip in without binding. The housing can be straightened by heating the tube on the high side, in a spot to red , to shrink. If the housing is straight, the axles will be fine.

As for tube overlap, I think the more the better. Weight isn't a problem and if the power or weight distorts the housing if will eat horsepower. That's why drag race housings are re-enforced.

Don't know the reason, (spins, mfg.,etc.) I had an axle that had .030 run-out at the wheel flange.

YMMV
Ron
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Offline Dr Goggles

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Re: Ford Axle Tubes on a GM 7.5 rear?????
« Reply #7 on: March 22, 2014, 09:55:23 PM »
here is how we fitted the ten bolt pumpkin between our ( I think 8.8) Ford tubes from memory there was a 63/72mm mismatch from the GM OD to the Ford ID, Soooooooo, it may well have been a slide over fit.......This was our first attempt, then we went at it with a piece of 3/4 all thread for a little more oomph, that did the trick........

We got some way into the job to fit the housing for the ten bolt rear end.

After having a crack at pulling one of the inserts in last week we elected to have a closer look. It seems where the axle tubes were welded into the frame that they were pinched a little by the cooled weld. We took to that with a stone and then gave it a polish with a flap wheel, on the next try the progress was a whole lot more even.Next we had a look at the housing itself. due to the way things had to go together we needed to pull the inserts from inside the housing, that meant there had to be a clear path. Turns out that the machining wasn't perfect and the axle "hole" didn't line up exactly with the relief behind the bearing seat so there was a bit of de-burring and clearancing there too.

So, we've got a three foot piece of half inch rod with some 8.8grade 5/8 thread welded on either end and a bunch of thick washers, short pieces of pipe and other assorted items to use as spacers.....

The idea is to pull the insert from the inside of the housing into the axle tube, the end of the insert that fits the housing is slightly larger than the end that goes into the axle tube, we put a chamfer on the step where the dia. changes just to stop it "ploughing" anything. Once we got both sides started we decided we needed force on both  at once or it would just be a see-saw so we quickly knocked up another length of seamless tube with a bolt out either end and got started.....there was a bit of tension in the system at this point, and we had noticed that the "legs" which wrap around the axle tubes were pulling inwards...they're half inch steel....In the shot below you'll see the ends of the puller rods inside the housing, you may also notice that the washer on the right is buckling......







The movement had been slowing, the force applied increasing......we paused to assess...."so,where is it moving?"....I gave it a few more turns and there was a resounding TWANG! followed by some tinkling of parts, the washer on the right had given up the rod pulled through the middle of it and the washer went flying, we figure from where it ended up that it went between the Reverends legs.......unseen.

Nothing was broken, the legs had popped back to straight. I figure we need to use a porta-power to push the inserts from within the housing as well as pulling them.

On a side we cut some nice holes to plug weld the inserts into the axle tubes, I think they are a leeeetle bit wide....hmmmmmmmm

All in all though we made slow but effective progress, I'm yet to research the availability/compatability of the universal joints on the tailshaft and haven't bothered working out whether we'll need to lengthen the tailshaft, if we have to shorten it there's gonna be problems, there is only about an inch and a half of tube, that means we can probably only shorten it 3/4 of an inch...... as it sits though it seems to line up pretty well(not perfect here but well within limits),


we have plenty of side to side adjustability, we need to do a trial fit to see that the stock Ford axles will be the right length with the centre in the centre or so to speak.

This is just another example of "you had to be there to understand why we did it this way".
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Offline Skip Pipes

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Re: Ford Axle Tubes on a GM 7.5 rear?????
« Reply #8 on: March 23, 2014, 01:04:27 AM »
Hi Sumner,

You’re a good detective.

The tubes are stock GM, however, they are stick welded with E7018 to the housing. I started with a brand new housing. And as you mentioned the stock tubes are sleeved (both sides) so I could easier use the off the shelf brackets of my choice. You might notice the axle have considerable offset. The material removed from the right side migrated to the left side to extend its length. And the ends are Ford Big Bearing ends, easily welded on the GM Tube. The whole assembly was final welded on an alignment bar. While I did a lot of the fabrication & welding of brackets, the ends were final welded by a local Axle shop J & S Gear Co. They were spectacular to deal with, set up the diff and final assembled the axle with Currie axles.
 
I liked the stock tubes because they were pressed into the housing, they were plug welded, and I could finish weld them to the housing. My thinking was; I want to put a lot of HP through the housing. I thought this strategy to be the most reasonable, however to those who know me (Jorge & Jim) will tell you my strategies might be "too complicated."

In this case I just wasn’t clever enough to use 3-inch Ford tubes. On a do-over, yes, I’d use the 3-inch tubes.

Skip Pipes
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Offline Sumner

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Re: Ford Axle Tubes on a GM 7.5 rear?????
« Reply #9 on: March 23, 2014, 01:07:59 AM »
Hi Sumner,

You’re a good detective.

The tubes are stock GM, however, they are stick welded with E7018 to the housing. I started with a brand new housing. And as you mentioned the stock tubes are sleeved (both sides) so I could easier use the off the shelf brackets of my choice. You might notice the axle have considerable offset. The material removed from the right side migrated to the left side to extend its length. And the ends are Ford Big Bearing ends, easily welded on the GM Tube. The whole assembly was final welded on an alignment bar. While I did a lot of the fabrication & welding of brackets, the ends were final welded by a local Axle shop J & S Gear Co. They were spectacular to deal with, set up the diff and final assembled the axle with Currie axles.
 
I liked the stock tubes because they were pressed into the housing, they were plug welded, and I could finish weld them to the housing. My thinking was; I want to put a lot of HP through the housing. I thought this strategy to be the most reasonable, however to those who know me (Jorge & Jim) will tell you my strategies might be "too complicated."

In this case I just wasn’t clever enough to use 3-inch Ford tubes. On a do-over, yes, I’d use the 3-inch tubes.

Skip Pipes


Thanks do you have a link to the Ford Big Ends you used.  The ones I've seen are machined on the inside for 3 inch tubes so too big ID to weld easily to the GM tubes,

Sum

Offline Skip Pipes

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Re: Ford Axle Tubes on a GM 7.5 rear?????
« Reply #10 on: March 23, 2014, 02:46:44 AM »
They’re stock Ford, not aftermarket and were leftovers from other projects. I can take a pic tomorrow if you need it.
 
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Offline Sumner

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Re: Ford Axle Tubes on a GM 7.5 rear?????
« Reply #11 on: March 23, 2014, 10:06:28 AM »
They’re stock Ford, not aftermarket and were leftovers from other projects. I can take a pic tomorrow if you need it.
 
Skip Pipes


Were they ...



... the weld on like above or ends you had cut off of a Ford housing?  I'm going to buy the tubes as I don't think the housing I have is wide enough, but if someone just needed to shorten a housing weld on ends could work.

Thanks,

Sum

Offline Peter Jack

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Re: Ford Axle Tubes on a GM 7.5 rear?????
« Reply #12 on: March 23, 2014, 11:21:03 AM »
Sum, if you have stock Ford ends with the tube still on why not leave a short stub of that tube and slip the GM tube into that? The Ford tube should provide the correct size bushing. Be sure to use a mandrel to align everything.

Pete

Offline Sumner

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Re: Ford Axle Tubes on a GM 7.5 rear?????
« Reply #13 on: March 23, 2014, 01:33:46 PM »
Sum, if you have stock Ford ends with the tube still on why not leave a short stub of that tube and slip the GM tube into that? The Ford tube should provide the correct size bushing. Be sure to use a mandrel to align everything.

Pete

Basically what I'm doing.  I have 3 Ford 9 inch housings outback but don't want to cut them up so....



.... will order the tubes with the Ford ends from the link I posted above.  If my GM was wide enough then ...



.... I'd just like to weld the ends on I posted above (ends no tubes) if someone has them where they fit the smaller GM tubes, so I was also interested in that option.  I'll know soon about my width and which way I can go.  Confusing uh  :cry:.  Some of my questions are for me and some to maybe provide a different path for someone else so thanks for the input.

I do have a bar (actually Sparky's) and I'm getting the bushings to use with it,

Sum

Offline Skip Pipes

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Re: Ford Axle Tubes on a GM 7.5 rear?????
« Reply #14 on: March 24, 2014, 03:09:24 AM »
They were cut off from a stock Ford housing, 3-inch stubs.
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