Author Topic: SOLID FRONT WHEELS/KING PIN/HUB COMBO  (Read 13071 times)

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Offline rickyracer

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SOLID FRONT WHEELS/KING PIN/HUB COMBO
« on: March 05, 2014, 03:07:51 PM »
Gentlemen!

I am planning a streamliner weighing around 1800 pounds for Bonneville and want to use solid front wheels. Costs need to be kept down and I would appreciate advice.

It seems common to recommend zero scrub. Does anyone have a king pin, hub and zero scrub solid wheel combination design and analysis, preferably approved by SCTA Tech. that they would be prepared to share information on?

Ideally some economically available parts would be incorporated such as Strange Engineering "Anglia" type spindles and perhaps a readily available compact steel or alloy spindle-mount hub.
The solid wheel will either bolt to the hub or incorporate the hub in it's bore for spindle mounting. The bolt-on wheel or wheel/hub combo will require the optimum backspace dimension to produce zero scrub at the chosen wheel diameter.

The desired diameter is in the range of 13 to 18 inches with up to 3 inch rim/tread width. An advantage of the 13 to 14 inch size would be interchangeability with the Goodyear 5.00 x 5 obsolete drag tire for lowish speed runway shakedown tests and transport without the need for major chassis ride height changes. A larger solid wheel size up to 18 inches could be used if a similar diameter and width wheel/tyre combo is available that has, say, a 150 mph speed rating or more to get satisfactory testing speed. Maybe a motorcycle tyre?    

Maybe it is too big an ask for someone to give away their knowledge, but there is a gap here. We have a reasonable choice of proven fabricators for larger steel and alloy wheels and the land speed tires for them but nothing in the size range in which I am interested, for which solid wheels seem the only option.

It would be nice if I didn't have to reinvent this particular wheel! Your advice would be much appreciated.      

Offline Milwaukee Midget

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Re: SOLID FRONT WHEELS/KING PIN/HUB COMBO
« Reply #1 on: March 05, 2014, 04:52:49 PM »
A couple of good threads on the topic already – And we DO have a search function on the forum -

http://www.landracing.com/forum/index.php/topic,7127.0.html
http://www.landracing.com/forum/index.php/topic,13129.0.html

The wheels and tires you use may be dependent upon the record of the class you’re looking to run, so get a rulebook BEFORE you start welding, whittling or worrying.

Welcome aboard!

Chris Conrad

PS - I'll vouch for Terry's work - Podunk here on the boards - shortened the hubs and spindles on the Midget - fell together like factory parts, but cleaner.
"Problems are almost always a sign of progress."  Harold Bettes
Well, I guess we're making a LOT of progress . . .  :roll:

Offline rickyracer

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Re: SOLID FRONT WHEELS/KING PIN/HUB COMBO
« Reply #2 on: March 06, 2014, 05:08:25 AM »
Thanks Chris!

I had done some homework before my first post, saw the two threads and was aware of Terry aka Podunk and some of the work he has done for Sid.

The area to be answered is whether anyone has got zero scrub small diameter solid wheels and which way did they do it? It is easier to get zero scub with a large diameter wheel/tyre.
 
Even then you need some 'backspace' inset because if you have the contact patch around midway between the bearings on a 7.5 degree king pin Strange spindle I reckon you would need a wheel/tyre dia. of around 46 inches for zero scrub!!!!!!

Whatever the method the wheel would need to be inset/dished a way inboard, especially at the 13.4 inch dia. of the 5.00 x 5 inch Goodyears option.
I know the Goodyears will not run at zero scrub but figure it will be OK for runway tests.

I am answering my own question here but using the flanged Chassis Shop hubs or something similar (any others out there?) and bolting the wheels on the inboard face would give the minimum wheel dishing and cheapest route. It has been done before but has anyone done it recently and with small solid wheels?

Offline Sumner

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Re: SOLID FRONT WHEELS/KING PIN/HUB COMBO
« Reply #3 on: March 06, 2014, 10:49:20 AM »
Could the solution to your problem be a center steer hub?  Maybe tell us more about the car or bike and the wheel layout and the intended speeds and such,

Sum

Offline rickyracer

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Re: SOLID FRONT WHEELS/KING PIN/HUB COMBO
« Reply #4 on: March 06, 2014, 01:03:17 PM »
It's a streamliner car, parallel front wheels, approx. 350 pounds static load per wheel.

Hub-centre will not benefit me. I was originally going 3-pointer layout but I don't need to be that narrow as the rear wheel frontal area is bigger and I will benefit from the stability of slightly widening the front track, have a shorter vehicle and improved C of G location.

The aero penalty of parallel wheels is minimised by a max. wheel width of 3 inches, preferably 2.5 inches.

Offline Glen

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Re: SOLID FRONT WHEELS/KING PIN/HUB COMBO
« Reply #5 on: March 06, 2014, 02:09:55 PM »
Ricky, how about you go to your membership profile and add city and state. This will help you if there are other LSR people in your area that can help/look at your build. Also lots of build pictures will help as well.
Glen
Crew on Turbinator II

South West, Utah

Offline jacksoni

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Re: SOLID FRONT WHEELS/KING PIN/HUB COMBO
« Reply #6 on: March 06, 2014, 02:49:56 PM »
I presume that by "solid front wheel" you mean no rubber involved. I expect you know but will remind you of rule 2.F that requires such wheels to be approved by the competition committee and that there cannot be "square" edges. Such devices are and have been run but are looked at carefully and mostly discouraged due to the perception that they may damage the course more than a wheel/tire combo. I suspect either one going sideways or in a crash situation can dig things up but not for me to say.... :|
Jack Iliff
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Offline Peter Jack

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Re: SOLID FRONT WHEELS/KING PIN/HUB COMBO
« Reply #7 on: March 06, 2014, 02:54:45 PM »
How about using a beam axle with kingpin at each end. You should be able to solve the problem with that and significant wheel offset. You could even use a steel center for the wheel with a bolt on aluminum wheel.

The first move I'd make would be to contact the relevant official and get your wheel plan approved. A very narrow, small diameter wheel will apply significant point loads on the salt and may break up the surface.

Pete

Offline Seldom Seen Slim

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Re: SOLID FRONT WHEELS/KING PIN/HUB COMBO
« Reply #8 on: March 06, 2014, 02:59:04 PM »
Glen:  Maybe I'll assign a town to RickyRacer.  Where'll we put him -- Hiatus Hernia, Indiana, or maybe Detached Retina, Missouri?  Got a preference? :evil:
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Offline Glen

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Re: SOLID FRONT WHEELS/KING PIN/HUB COMBO
« Reply #9 on: March 06, 2014, 03:52:33 PM »
BF somewhere on some country road :roll:
Glen
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South West, Utah

Offline SPARKY

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Re: SOLID FRONT WHEELS/KING PIN/HUB COMBO
« Reply #10 on: March 06, 2014, 06:51:39 PM »
Be aware that with solid wheels there may be years you will not be able to run due to course damage.
Miss LIBERTY,  changing T.K.I.  to noise, dust, rust, BLUE HATS & hopefully not scrap!!

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Offline Seldom Seen Slim

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Re: SOLID FRONT WHEELS/KING PIN/HUB COMBO
« Reply #11 on: March 06, 2014, 07:24:04 PM »
And speaking of limiting runs -- don't I remember hearing that some of the solid wheeled vehicles have been limited to, say, one run per day - to minimise course damage by limiting the number of times the car is allowed to use the course.
Jon E. Wennerberg
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Offline rickyracer

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Re: SOLID FRONT WHEELS/KING PIN/HUB COMBO
« Reply #12 on: March 07, 2014, 12:12:03 PM »
What a great site – the home of witty banter! Is it because I is a Brit?

As soon as I registered with the handle ‘rickyracer’ I reflected it was maybe a tad juvenile. But hey, I’m well into second childhood and obviously in the good company of like-minded souls.
Two posts and already some people want to know all my personal details but inside leg measurement is going too far for a stiff Brit if you get my drift…………….

Seriously folks, I’ve been an SCTA member since 1992, the Teague/White era, and been to Speed Week a few times when I could get away from the day job. Met the nicest people too, may have had a great conversation with someone who has replied to my post.
Had plenty of rule books too and am in communication with SCTA Tech. re my project. I was a rotating machinery service engineer but not an experienced fabricator or machinist so will have to pull in the expertise here and there to ensure a quality build.

Maybe I’m not heavy with the intros because I would rather have something to show before I open my mouth.

Glen/Jon – My email address includes UK. Thought that was enough info for a mainly US readership and Jon you are very astute as I do actually live on a country road! There - you knew it.

As my first post said I am planning a streamliner, so no build pics etc. I did commence a build many years ago but a severe lack of home time meant I had to abandon until my work retirement so I am now finalising a new design. What speed? Current class record mid 200’s but I would prefer capacity in the chassis/body to 400.

Peter – As you mentioned, a simple drag beam style front end is exactly what I have in mind.

I am aware there is prejudice against solid wheels from some traditionalists but the ‘Marks Brothers’ and some famous names on 2 and 4 wheels have used them at Bonneville with the full range of success and failure. Why gloat over the failures. We are fortunate that great inventors didn’t give up after every failure or criticism.
In these days of variable and uncertain availability of suitable tyres in limited sizes it is surely in everyone’s interest to keep options open. With solid wheels, unless the salt is very soft and mushy, care in selection of profile and width, and use of rounded edges on a vehicle with low wheel loading will result in minor marking of the salt only, not deep tramlining that could trap a biker.

The rule is there that meet officials can bar a vehicle that significantly damages the salt, which is completely fair. Indeed, presumably a ban could also be applied to a vehicle with tyres as I see some gouge the salt leaving grooves with their driven tyres on nearly every run. The solid front wheel cars just seem to have a light smoothing effect which is pretty well wiped out by the rears under power.
                                   
I didn’t expect so many questions as I thought I gave enough information in my first couple of posts.
I can and probably will design my own wheels or specify to a CAD designer. I have already had generous advice from some solid wheel users but none with zero scrub except maybe JC.
Just thought if someone on the site has been there, done that, it might save me a little time as my years advance!

Offline Milwaukee Midget

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Re: SOLID FRONT WHEELS/KING PIN/HUB COMBO
« Reply #13 on: March 07, 2014, 12:42:46 PM »
What a great site – the home of witty banter! Is it because I is a Brit?

Is you, now?  :wink:

That's a lot of speed for a liner that light.  I find at 1500 lbs and 95 hp, I'm still spinning tires on my 3/4 shift.

How are you powering it?

Chris

 
"Problems are almost always a sign of progress."  Harold Bettes
Well, I guess we're making a LOT of progress . . .  :roll:

Offline John Burk

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Re: SOLID FRONT WHEELS/KING PIN/HUB COMBO
« Reply #14 on: March 07, 2014, 01:28:17 PM »
Rick Yacoucci went 375 with Neb ll which weighed 1500# . Jack's body design must not have any lift .