Comparison of same pair of turbos on a 439, 509 and and a570 BBC...

[Sumner]

I've put up a page on my site where I look at how well the turbos we are using on Hooley's 572 BBC would work on say a 439 B motor and a 509 AA (would be about the same for a 495 A motor) and a larger 570 cu. in. BBC.  The turbos are Borg Warner's S400SX (P/N 171702) that you can find for well under $800 each.

We knew going in that they weren't the best match for the 572 but the alternative was turbos that cost over $2000 each and that wasn't going to happen now.  Still these turbos should be good for 1400+ HP on the 572 and that should get us to where we are trying to go at this point.  The expensive turbos would be good for 2000+ HP but at this point and maybe never we just don't need that much HP.

These turbos are a great match for the 439 and the 509 so are a good candidate for someone wanting to build a B, A or smaller AA motor and with the turbo technology where it is now there is no need for a large AA motor.   Look at what the Speed Demon guys have done with a small motor  

Ok so here is the link to the page....

http://1fatgmc.com/car/turbo-stuff/S400SX-171702-on%20439-509-570%20BBC-1.html

....and here is one of the compressor maps on it....



Sum

[GH]

Sumner, I ran a pair of Garrets that is used on the Ford Power Stroke engines. They cost just $200 each, new. The BBC was 515CI and boosted 17 psi, did a pretty good job after Tims Turbos worked them over. Gale Banks wanted $5800 for 2 turbos and 2 wastegates.

[n49racer]

Hey Sumner
I just talked to the head expert at a big turbo place here that do perf turbos. Told him what we had and want to do. Guess which turbo he recommended as best bang for the buck? He also said they would on the eadge at the altitude.

Ted

[Sumner]

Hey Sumner
I just talked to the head expert at a big turbo place here that do perf turbos. Told him what we had and want to do. Guess which turbo he recommended as best bang for the buck? He also said they would on the eadge at the altitude.

Ted

I'm guessing the BW 171702 (SX400) that we used and I talked to you about  .  Have you decided on them and how is the build coming?

Here is a MatchBot link showing two of those turbos on a 572 (assuming that is what you are still going to use) at 7000 feet and 90 degrees.  Still good for 1400+ HP, but he is right that they are about maxed out there on the 572.  I think 1400 HP would go a long ways towards your 300 mph goal and you could always sell them down the road.  It is a very versatile turbo.  Only one even looks good on my 2.9 but slow to spool but believe me you won't have that problem.  You will be trying to slow it down like we have.

The link....

http://www.3k-warner.de/////aftermarket/matchbot/index.html#version=1.3&displacement=9.37&CID=571.7574&altitude=7000&baro=11.85&aat=90&turboconfig=2&compressor=100s74&pt1_rpm=2000&pt1_ve=85&pt1_boost=0&pt1_ie=99&pt1_filres=0.08&pt1_ipd=0.2&pt1_mbp=0.5&pt1_ce=66&pt1_te=75&pt1_egt=1550&pt1_ter=1.05&pt1_pw=75.61&pt1_bsfc=0.43&pt1_afr=11.5&pt1_wts=300&pt1_wd=83&pt1_wd2=74&pt1_wrsin=69033&pt2_rpm=3000&pt2_ve=95&pt2_boost=5&pt2_ie=95&pt2_filres=0.05&pt2_ipd=0.2&pt2_mbp=1&pt2_ce=70&pt2_te=80&pt2_egt=1600&pt2_ter=1.25&pt2_pw=19.89&pt2_bsfc=0.45&pt2_afr=11.5&pt2_wts=320&pt2_wd=83&pt2_wd2=74&pt2_wrsin=73635&pt3_rpm=4000&pt3_ve=100&pt3_boost=10&pt3_ie=95&pt3_filres=0.05&pt3_ipd=0.5&pt3_mbp=1.3&pt3_ce=77&pt3_te=80&pt3_egt=1650&pt3_ter=1.47&pt3_pw=26.81&pt3_bsfc=0.48&pt3_afr=11.5&pt3_wts=340&pt3_wd=83&pt3_wd2=74&pt3_wrsin=78238&pt4_rpm=5000&pt4_ve=100&pt4_boost=16&pt4_ie=95&pt4_filres=0.05&pt4_ipd=1&pt4_mbp=1.5&pt4_ce=77&pt4_te=71&pt4_egt=1650&pt4_ter=1.91&pt4_pw=26.3&pt4_bsfc=0.5&pt4_afr=11.5&pt4_wts=368&pt4_wd=83&pt4_wd2=74&pt4_wrsin=84681&pt5_rpm=6000&pt5_ve=105&pt5_boost=16&pt5_ie=95&pt5_filres=0.05&pt5_ipd=1&pt5_mbp=1.8&pt5_ce=67&pt5_te=70&pt5_egt=1650&pt5_ter=2.2&pt5_pw=28.25&pt5_bsfc=0.52&pt5_afr=11.5&pt5_wts=400&pt5_wd=83&pt5_wd2=74&pt5_wrsin=92044&pt6_rpm=6500&pt6_ve=105&pt6_boost=16&pt6_ie=95&pt6_filres=0.05&pt6_ipd=1&pt6_mbp=2&pt6_ce=65&pt6_te=70&pt6_egt=1650&pt6_ter=2.3&pt6_pw=29.61&pt6_bsfc=0.55&pt6_afr=11.5&pt6_wts=400&pt6_wd=83&pt6_wd2=74&pt6_wrsin=92044&

Let me know if I can help,

Sum

[Stainless1]

Hey Sum, when he gets rid of them keep us in mind... we are looking for a turbo for the 45ci motor.... hahahahaha

[Crackerman]

95 lbs a min, is that the 68mm inducer? Step it up to the 72 mm inducer or even 74, and see if it heads off to the right side of the chart still. Especially at altitude.

[Sumner]

95 lbs a min, is that the 68mm inducer? Step it up to the 72 mm inducer or even 74, and see if it heads off to the right side of the chart still. Especially at altitude.

http://www.himni-racing.com/images/s400sx4_11_airwerks_1.jpg

The 171702 in the middle has a 75 mm inducer.  The appealing thing about this turbo is you can find them under $800 and even under $700 each and they might not be perfect but they will do a lot (not going to work for you Stainless   ).  Once you start specing different turbines and compressors the price starts to really jump up there.  The other 2 turbos shown there are about twice as much each.  The 171702 can support more HP, but not much more with the 572.  A smaller motor that can run at higher boost levels where is can move further to the right on the map will make more HP than the 572.  What I talked about in the link I posted above in my first post.

With Hooley's 572 the turbos we need to make over 2000 HP are over $2000.00 each.  The question is do we really need that much HP?

One thing that is a little confusing if you went to the MatchBot link I posted it shows the map for the S400SX100mm (100S74).  Borg Warner told me to use that map in MatchBot for the 171702 as it is almost identical to...



...the 171702 map above which isn't a pull-down option in MatchBot.  I've also plotted the points on the 171702 map above and they are almost identical.  One nice thing about MatchBot is you can use it to do the calculations and then plot on any may you might have.  It gives so much more info than other calculators I've seen,

Sum

[Sumner]

Hey Sum, when he gets rid of them keep us in mind... we are looking for a turbo for the 45ci motor.... hahahahaha

That size engine isn't easy to find a turbo for, at least it wasn't for me looking at Turbonetic's turbos.  I did fine one that works to some degree.  Not sure what HP level you are going for and I guessed at the rpm.  I'd be glad to take some guesses for you if you had specific turbos in mind and had maps for them and could give me more info like rpm and hoped for HP levels.  Greg is probably the one to go to for this.  Not sure what he is running or anyone else with a 750 cc.  Here is what I did come up with after a couple hours.  It has 250 HP potential if you have the parts for that  .....


(Larger Image.. http://1fatgmc.com/car/turbo-stuff/750cc-T3-Super%2060%20trim-MC%20Engine-1.jpg)

Anyone with a 750 run this turbo?  Anyone want to share what they have run with a 750 or what they are thinking of running?

Sum

[jl222]

Hey Sum, when he gets rid of them keep us in mind... we are looking for a turbo for the 45ci motor.... hahahahaha

That size engine isn't easy to find a turbo for, at least it wasn't for me looking at Turbonetic's turbos.  I did fine one that works to some degree.  Not sure what HP level you are going for and I guessed at the rpm.  I'd be glad to take some guesses for you if you had specific turbos in mind and had maps for them and could give me more info like rpm and hoped for HP levels.  Greg is probably the one to go to for this.  Not sure what he is running or anyone else with a 750 cc.  Here is what I did come up with after a couple hours.  It has 250 HP potential if you have the parts for that  .....


(Larger Image.. http://1fatgmc.com/car/turbo-stuff/750cc-T3-Super%2060%20trim-MC%20Engine-1.jpg)

Anyone with a 750 run this turbo?  Anyone want to share what they have run with a 750 or what they are thinking of running?

Sum

  Sum...I'm pretty sure Stainless knows these turbos are way to big for his little motor and was joking

  You guys are intercooling [I hope] which will drop the air temp a bunch and increase the density ratio.

 Depending on what pressure and temp the turbos were tested at the pressure is a couple of lbs less than sea level and the days can be hotter increasing the outlet temp. If there was a 2 lb drop and to get 22lbs gage the turbo would be making 24lbs.

                      JL222

[Sumner]

....

  Sum...I'm pretty sure Stainless knows these turbos are way to big for his little motor and was joking...

Yea, I knew that  , but his 750 did get me curious about a turbo that might work for it so I started looking and came up with the one above.  I'm sure there are a number of other ones also.

.... You guys are intercooling [I hope] which will drop the air temp a bunch and increase the density ratio.

 Depending on what pressure and temp the turbos were tested at the pressure is a couple of lbs less than sea level and the days can be hotter increasing the outlet temp. If there was a 2 lb drop and to get 22lbs gage the turbo would be making 24lbs.

                      JL222

Yep we are intercooling....



... didn't put a lot of ice in the...



.... 28 gallon tank on the lic. runs last year but it still brought the temps from 250 down to 100 and I'm thinking it will be a lot better when we really load it up with ice this next year.

The MatchBot calculator is nice in that....



.... it gives the projected air temps at the compressor outlet and manifold and also figures in for altitude and temps and gives the pressure ratio at the compressors and the manifold.  You have to put in other things like intercooler efficiency and such and account for plumbing pressure drops yourself.  It isn't perfect and is only as good as your input data, but still a very good tool.  I see no reason it wouldn't work for belt driven centrifugal compressors as long as you had the compressor map for them.  The air might be slightly cooler since there would be no turbine to give heat to the compressor through the center section. 

The data above was the outputs for the 750 cc engine at 4500 ft. and 80 deg.   The turbine info is not right as you need to use the program with one of their Borg Warner turbos and I was using it to figure the map points for a Turbonetics turbo.  If you are looking at one of their turbos it will plot exhaust pressures and more as you can see above.

I think...



... our layout is really good as we had 8 lb. springs in the wastegates and on the springs we were running just a little over 9 psig at the manifold so I think we have minimal pressure losses in the plumbing.  Only 2 90 deg. turns in the path from the compressors to the carb hat.  90 deg in the intercoolers on the inlet side and 90 on the other side coming out.  We went pretty far overboard on the 2 intercoolers.  They claimed the intercoolers are suppose to support 1500 HP each (\ Probably optimistic)...

http://www.cxracing.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=CXR&Product_Code=AWIC03&Category_Code=

.... and we went with 2.

Sum

[redhotracing]

Sumner-
Check out Bullseye turbo out of MI, they gave us a great deal on
our S488 in a semi sponsorship deal. Each has 1400hp potential,
I'm sure they'd be interested with a potential 300mph car.

[Sumner]

Sumner-
Check out Bullseye turbo out of MI, they gave us a great deal on
our S488 in a semi sponsorship deal. Each has 1400hp potential,
I'm sure they'd be interested with a potential 300mph car.

Thanks for the info.  We will keep them in mind for the future.  What we have right now might have more potential than the car itself.  We also got a semi-sponsorship deal through....

http://www.turbochargerpros.com/

.... where we bought the Borg Warner turbos. 

We feel we need to take some baby steps in trying to run upper 200 mph speeds and we feel we have plenty of HP to do that. About the fastest I've seen for a Stude was in the 270's and it had a different front on it and ours is different since Hooley ran 253 so we feel we are going into kind of uncharted territory so hope to make our progress over 250 in 15 to 20 mph increments.  Of course the only way I have hope of keeping Hooley to that plan is through the transmission gearing  ,

[robfrey]

The Holset HT3b turbos are similar in size and output. They are very robust and can be easily found used tor $250. A $40 rebuild kit makes them like new. Also HT60 can be had for close to the same price. They use the same exhaust turbine but have a slightly larger compressor side.

[SPARKY]

Trans gearing and rev limiter 

[Crackerman]

All the ht3b turbos i have seen are 71mm

If you can find a couple ht4b's they are big mamma jammas. At 83mm comp inducer and 120~ lb/min rating, i picked my last one up for 200 bucks. A turbine housing to chra clamp is all it took to get up and going again.

You can also source garrett gta4202 turbos off detroit diesels for 250-500 bucks. Dont run em over 30ish psi,(even though they might have before) as the boreless comp wheel starts hating life and commits suicide. A standard chra slides right in.  They are 76mm inducers.