Liner budgets.

[Speed Limit 1000]

Sum, a very good point that most do not think about. There is a reason that the Goldenrod held that record so long  

[Richard 2]

No good salt. No good run.

Richard 2

[jl222]

  And yet you see some very fast cars pushing for 1/4 mile and even farther.
 
      JL222

[PorkPie]

No good salt. No good run.

Richard 2

in the 60's there were two incredible speed machines at the salt - one was the Goldenrod the other the Bluebird CN7.

Donald Campbell set with this car a 403 mph record on the Lake Eyre in 1964.

what maybe is forgotten - how he set this record.

The course was only 7 miles long....3 miles to accelerate - measured mile - 3 miles to slow down....in the center of the measured mile deep grooves was crossing the track from a earlier course (the course was so bad damaged by water that he could be used anymore).

Running out of the measured mile (means 4 mile marker) the car was running at 445 mph and still full accelerating...

With the 12-14 mile long course to same time, at Bonneville, the record could be in the range of 500 mph or 500+.....

...so much to GOOD SALT

unfortunately Donald didn't like to come back to the Bonneville Salt Flats after his incident in 1960.....

[Richard 2]

I was referring to the year to year Salt conditions (as in last years bad salt and 2010's good salt).
   But the Donald Campbell salt conditions are interesting. He also had 4000 hp, 4 wheel drive, and planned on 500 mph.
     
   Did he have any chutes or just the 4 inboard brakes?   

Richard 2

[John Burk]

I was there in 1960 the week after Speedweek when the truck transporting Blue Bird arrived . The British tractor and trailer must not have met all our laws and we heard they had been pulled over many times on the way from Boston . I assumed not returning here for 1964 was because of that .

[PorkPie]

I was referring to the year to year Salt conditions (as in last years bad salt and 2010's good salt).
   But the Donald Campbell salt conditions are interesting. He also had 4000 hp, 4 wheel drive, and planned on 500 mph.
     
   Did he have any chutes or just the 4 inboard brakes?   

Richard 2

the Bluebird CN7 had two airbrakes on the far end, left and right...but also, when the car run in Australia, a parachute.

[Sumner]

...Donald Campbell set with this car a 403 mph record on the Lake Eyre in 1964.

what maybe is forgotten - how he set this record.

The course was only 7 miles long....3 miles to accelerate - measured mile - 3 miles to slow down....in the center of the measured mile deep grooves was crossing the track from a earlier course (the course was so bad damaged by water that he could be used anymore).

Running out of the measured mile (means 4 mile marker) the car was running at 445 mph and still full accelerating......

Thanks for the history lesson  .

There is no doubt the car was very fast and had potential but still the 403 average over the mile was still almost 100 mph short of averaging 500.  The course was 4 miles total so the question is if it was 6 miles total in the one direction would he of had time to not just run 500 but actually averaged it in the last mile and then ran it a second time in the opposite direction?  He would of had about 8 seconds to accelerated from the 445 to 500 before entering the last mile at 500 or would of had to of been accelerating hard in the last mile if he would of entered it under 500.

Some one will probably have a 500 mph exit speed way before there is a 500 mph average speed over the mile.  If I remember right even Speed Demon has to raise their average speed over 60 mph to be over 500 in the mile (not exit speed).  I have a feeling that they have the HP now to go faster but are up against the aero wall where they are traction limited.  If so they have to improve traction either with weight or with aero downforce both of which will change everything again for them. 

I once asked Tom, correct me if I'm remembering wrong Tom, "since you can run 450 at about 40-50% throttle and can't use more without spinning the tires why not add weight to the car".  His answer was that he had run  spread sheets on accelerating the car with different car weights and that sure more weight would help with top end speed by allowing more throttle there but the car would be slower to accelerate with the added weight and still run out of course.  At these high speeds it just isn't about designing a car that can run the speeds but one that can accelerate to them in the distance available.  It is going to come down to probably computer controlled wings for downforce during the run,

Sum

[Bob Drury]

  Sum, I just don't believe 500 will ever happen at Bonneville due to the deterioration of the Salt and more importantly the lack of shutdown length due to the same problem.
  I think the only vehicle with a chance of stopping with what's now available would be the Speed Demon as all the other vehicles may be too heavy to stop.
  This would include the Burkland's, Treit and Davenport, and probably even the faster single engined streamliners of longer length than the Demon.
  I don't believe that there is any venue left in North America that can sustain multiple runs for any of these guys unless a miracle (such as the BLM doing what it should do and hauling all the salt sitting in piles along the south side of I-80 back to where it was STOLEN from) happens, and due to politics, that will never happen in most of our's lifetime.                                                                                             Just my sad opinion, Bob.

[PorkPie]

...Donald Campbell set with this car a 403 mph record on the Lake Eyre in 1964.

what maybe is forgotten - how he set this record.

The course was only 7 miles long....3 miles to accelerate - measured mile - 3 miles to slow down....in the center of the measured mile deep grooves was crossing the track from a earlier course (the course was so bad damaged by water that he could be used anymore).

Running out of the measured mile (means 4 mile marker) the car was running at 445 mph and still full accelerating......

Thanks for the history lesson  .

There is no doubt the car was very fast and had potential but still the 403 average over the mile was still almost 100 mph short of averaging 500.  The course was 4 miles total so the question is if it was 6 miles total in the one direction would he of had time to not just run 500 but actually averaged it in the last mile and then ran it a second time in the opposite direction?  He would of had about 8 seconds to accelerated from the 445 to 500 before entering the last mile at 500 or would of had to of been accelerating hard in the last mile if he would of entered it under 500.

Some one will probably have a 500 mph exit speed way before there is a 500 mph average speed over the mile.  If I remember right even Speed Demon has to raise their average speed over 60 mph to be over 500 in the mile (not exit speed),

Sum

maybe some more information  on Donald's record run....only in the fourth mile - means measured mile - he accelerate for more than 80 mph - he  entered the measure mile with around 360 mph.....due to the wet track he could accelerate not better in the first three miles.....

the measured mile had lots of crossing grooves, most of this grooves was 2 inches deep and up to five inches wide....not the right condition to accelerate, especially at that speed....
but this grooves showed how wet and soft the salt was...

in the 60's at Bonneville the international track was still good for 13 miles plus.....means 6 miles for acceleration before entering the measured mile....

or two more to go after leaving the fourth  mile....and under perfect condition his final speed at the Lake Eyre he had reached much  earlier....

at last...the Bluebird was a wheel driven car....with some help from this exhaust tube.....

[jl222]

 
  Liners need a variable spoiler, wing and more tires 4 wheel drive + 2 more in tandem. Dragsters and Funny cars are accelerating to 324 + in 3.7 sec and 3.9 sec in 1/4 mile. wonder what their speed and ET would be with Bville tires.

  Tandem axle liner with variable wings being built, and at the body stage now.

              JL222

[Bob Drury]

  John, my concerns with air brakes is the learning curve of what if's which include how much is too much, what happens if one side fails or is slower to react? 
  What effects could sudden wind gusts from the side have on the design?  And lastly, how do you deal with the sudden unloading of the chassis?
  While I am sure that these problems can logicaly be solved with fly-by-wire systems, it is the learning curve at 450+ that worries me.    Bob

[PorkPie]

  Dragsters and Funny cars are accelerating to 324 + in 3.7 sec and 3.9 sec in 1/4 mile. wonder what their speed and ET would be with Bville tires.

  
              JL222

SLOW

[fabio montani]

...Donald Campbell set with this car a 403 mph record on the Lake Eyre in 1964.

what maybe is forgotten - how he set this record.

The course was only 7 miles long....3 miles to accelerate - measured mile - 3 miles to slow down....in the center of the measured mile deep grooves was crossing the track from a earlier course (the course was so bad damaged by water that he could be used anymore).

Running out of the measured mile (means 4 mile marker) the car was running at 445 mph and still full accelerating......

Thanks for the history lesson  .

There is no doubt the car was very fast and had potential but still the 403 average over the mile was still almost 100 mph short of averaging 500.  The course was 4 miles total so the question is if it was 6 miles total in the one direction would he of had time to not just run 500 but actually averaged it in the last mile and then ran it a second time in the opposite direction?  He would of had about 8 seconds to accelerated from the 445 to 500 before entering the last mile at 500 or would of had to of been accelerating hard in the last mile if he would of entered it under 500.

Some one will probably have a 500 mph exit speed way before there is a 500 mph average speed over the mile.  If I remember right even Speed Demon has to raise their average speed over 60 mph to be over 500 in the mile (not exit speed).  I have a feeling that they have the HP now to go faster but are up against the aero wall where they are traction limited.  If so they have to improve traction either with weight or with aero downforce both of which will change everything again for them. 

I once asked Tom, correct me if I'm remembering wrong Tom, "since you can run 450 at about 40-50% throttle and can't use more without spinning the tires why not add weight to the car".  His answer was that he had run  spread sheets on accelerating the car with different car weights and that sure more weight would help with top end speed by allowing more throttle there but the car would be slower to accelerate with the added weight and still run out of course.  At these high speeds it just isn't about designing a car that can run the speeds but one that can accelerate to them in the distance available.  It is going to come down to probably computer controlled wings for downforce during the run,

Sum

Sumner , You admirably described the point and I agree with your conclusion.Turning around with more weight and more power is a closed circle.
Today's traction control and controlled downforce on a reasonably light car is the way to go in my view

[superleggera]

Given the thread deviation from original poster (should this become a new thread?) -- two problems with controlled downforce:  #1) will Bonneville safety rated high speed tires handle the load forces created?;  #2) how much downforce can one make when the salt base itself is not of very good condition today (ie: will tire groove compression from heavy downforce aided vehicles on the course become an issue for other competitors potentially?). 

From the rulebook, remember that 2.Q Computer states: "Vehicles may be equipped with a computer which affects engine operations ONLY, except in vintage engine classes section 2.A.1"  (so no computer to control your aerodynamic package -- but there are other methods to do it without computers...)