Author Topic: Using a supercharger map  (Read 21214 times)

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Offline Koncretekid

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Using a supercharger map
« on: December 17, 2013, 11:30:56 AM »
I probably have too much time on my hands so I'm trying to learn about choosing the correct supercharger and have found this site as sent to me by Jim L. to very interesting as it goes thru the steps: http://www.motorgeek.com/viewtopic.php?t=2747 

But there are some calculations that either do not show up correctly, or I'm not reading them correctly. They are as follows:

"Tout (in F) = (((Tin (in F) + 460) * (Pressure Ratio0.283)) - 460)

For 15psi of boost at sea level at an ambient temp of 85F (85F in this case so that our computed CFM ends up matching that of the compressor map).

Tout = (85 + 460) * 2.020^.283 - 460 = 205F "

I can't follow the math shown here (2.02 is the pressure ratio; I have no idea where the .283 came from). Can anybody explain this?

Tom
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Offline manta22

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Re: Using a supercharger map
« Reply #1 on: December 17, 2013, 11:59:34 AM »
It looks like the equation is using temperature units of degrees Rankine.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ

Offline sabat

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Re: Using a supercharger map
« Reply #2 on: December 17, 2013, 12:10:24 PM »
This is my favorite resource for this sort of calculation & plotting.

http://not2fast.com/turbo/glossary/turbo_calc.shtml

Offline Sumner

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Re: Using a supercharger map
« Reply #3 on: December 17, 2013, 12:11:31 PM »
It looks like that might be a constant that the pressure ratio is taken to the power of, but I'm not real strong on math.

I like Borg Warner's Matchbot program.....

http://www.3k-warner.de/en/aftermarket/matchbot.aspx

... you can use it for other compressors than theirs to some degree by using the program to generate the pressure ratios and air requirements for different boost levels for the engine in mind and then print out the map you are working with and plot the points on that map.  I have some explaination of that in this years build for Hooley's Stude where I picked out the turbos to be used.  Here is a link to those pages, both with a BW turbo and using their data on a non-BW turbo compressor.....

http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/Hooley%202013/13%20-%20hooley-construction-2013-1-a.html

Also for me right now the Matchbot program is not plotting the points on the compressor map like it use to.  I called them and I'm waiting on a reply back.  All of the info generated seems good though so there again print the map out and plot to it,

Sum
« Last Edit: December 17, 2013, 12:23:42 PM by Sumner »

Offline Koncretekid

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Re: Using a supercharger map
« Reply #4 on: December 17, 2013, 01:56:50 PM »
Thanks for the other links.  The formula I posted directly from the motorgeek site appears to have an error, because the ^ is missing, replaced instead by a 0, which then made the following example (which may be correct) different.  I found a math site (again supplied by Jim L.) that had a function "x to the power of y".  With this formula, and raising 2.02 (the pressure ratio) to the power of .283, I got the answer as shown.  What this part of the formula does is calculate the temperature of the air exiting the supercharger, the change in temperature is then subsequently divided by the SC efficiency to get the actual change in temperature.  Yes the temperature is in degrees Fahranheit (sp?) so degrees Rankine must be used in the formulas, hence the 460 fudge factor.  I'll play with the numbers as a math assignment for the future.  One wonders how the old timers ever got it right without computers and the internet.  I'm thinking an educated or WAG and give it a try.
Tom
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Offline Sumner

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Re: Using a supercharger map
« Reply #5 on: December 17, 2013, 02:38:21 PM »
... What this part of the formula does is calculate the temperature of the air exiting the supercharger, the change in temperature is then subsequently divided by the SC efficiency to get the actual change in temperature.....

The Borg Warner calculator gives you that also.

They have a large number of required inputs....



....good if you know for sure what they are but the results could be skewed by wild guesses  :-)

You also get a lot of ouput info....



In addition if you use one of their turbo maps it plots the info on the map if that is working at the moment.

Here are larger screen views of the above part of their calculator and there is more to it than what I've posted here.....

http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/bvillecar/Matchbot%20Inputs-1.jpg

http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/bvillecar/Matchbot%20outputs-1.jpg

A number of people pick a turbo compressor just based on how much HP potential it has, but that can be way off depending on the displacement of the engine and other factors.  The only way to feel you are headed in the right direction is taking the time to do the calculations and plot them on the compressor map you are considering.  This was a lot harder a couple years ago when you had to do all of the calcs manually using the formulas in books like Corky Bell's.  Now these online calculators make it much simpler,

Sum

Offline manta22

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Re: Using a supercharger map
« Reply #6 on: December 17, 2013, 02:39:48 PM »
Yes, on the Rankine temperature scale, absolute zero is 0 degrees R and zero degrees Farenheit is 460 degrees Rankine.  :-P

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ

Offline Dean Los Angeles

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Re: Using a supercharger map
« Reply #7 on: December 18, 2013, 11:14:58 AM »
As with most things here, it's never simple, is it?

I put my first turbo on an Opel Kadett in 1969. No internet to do research. Spent a huge amount of time looking for books. Remember those? First try I undersized the exhaust and after a trip around the block everything was glowing red. Worked fine after that.

Quote
I'm thinking an educated or WAG and give it a try.

You are slightly incorrect. There are only WAGs and SWAGs.  After you do a Wild Ass Guess and do some research, it becomes a Scientific Wild Ass Guess.
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Offline Seldom Seen Slim

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Re: Using a supercharger map
« Reply #8 on: December 18, 2013, 12:21:07 PM »
Dean, I think you missed one in the process.  You take a WAG, then study and make an EWAG (educated wag) and then do some experiments that result in you being able to make a SWAG based on what you've seen happen.
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Offline Ron Gibson

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Re: Using a supercharger map
« Reply #9 on: December 18, 2013, 01:20:56 PM »
My experience has been that it's a "STUPID" WAG. :-D

Ron
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Offline jl222

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Re: Using a supercharger map
« Reply #10 on: December 18, 2013, 03:08:10 PM »

  TURBOCHARGERS by Huge Macinnes  [HPBooks] explains everything from sizing turbos, figuring temps, water injection
and a lot more.

                JL222

Offline Koncretekid

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Re: Using a supercharger map
« Reply #11 on: December 19, 2013, 08:24:59 AM »
I found the definitive answer to my question here: http://www.not2fast.com/turbo/glossary/turbo_glossary.shtml#compressor_efficiency

"Compressor Efficiency (Turbocharger Efficiency)

    Compressor efficiency is a measure of how well the compressor wheel uses its kinetic energy to compress air (the remainder of the energy is turned into heat in the compressed charge). In an ideal system, compression of the input fluid would raises its temperature adiabatically. This is never the case in the real world, so all calculations must take the compressor efficiency into account.

    In order to calculate compressor outlet temperature, you must know compressor efficiency, pressure ratio and ambient temperature.

                         (PR^0.283 - 1) * Tambient
                Trise = ---------------------------
                                Ec

                Trise    = increase in temperature
                PR       = pressure ratio
                Tambient = ambient temperature (in an absolute scale, Kelvin or Rankine)
                Ec       = Efficiency of the compressor

    The exponent of the pressure ratio arises from the molecular structure of the gas. Diatomic gasses (like N2 and O2) have seven degrees of freedom, five of which are excitable at STP. Thus gamma = 7/5 in the equation P(V^gamma) = constant, and we can derive an exponent of 1 - (1/gamma) = 0.285. For real air, containing non-diatomic molecules like CO2, a better value is 0.283. For more on this, see the gas thermodynamics section of Nuclear Weapons FAQ (!) (scan down to section 3.1.6).

    So, for example, my Garrett T04E compressor running at PR of 2.5, Ec of 0.75 in the good old summer time with a temperature of 27 degrees Celsius (300 Kelvin) produces:

                         (2.5^0.283 - 1) 300
                Trise = ---------------------   
                                0.75

                      = 118°"

So now you now where ^.283 came from.  There are probably a couple of you on here that understand all of that.  By the way, you can find the root .250 of any number on a common calculator because this is actually the square root of the square root of the number. I found that by doing this using the number 2 as the pressure ratio, that taking the sq. rt. of the sq. rt. gave me an answer within 4% of using the computer to find the .283 root.  In case you want to do the math and don't happen to have access to the net, like on the Salt Flats.  Assuming, of course, that you have all the other information and formulas at hand.

We get too soon oldt, and too late schmart!
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Offline sabat

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Re: Using a supercharger map
« Reply #12 on: December 19, 2013, 09:11:25 AM »
Yep, not only is the calculator itself handy, but the documentation is detailed.

One thing I've noticed is that the compressor sizing is a little conservative for modern motorcycle engines. My little stock-head 1000cc Kawasaki did just fine with 62mm S-housing compressor, even thought most calculators would predict surge.

Dean


Offline Koncretekid

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Re: Using a supercharger map
« Reply #13 on: December 19, 2013, 03:36:34 PM »
I was wondering about using a smallish charger.  Rotrex make a C8-8 in a CCW version that will give me a 1.8 PR at about 10psi boost (probably as much as the BSA can stand, maybe more) which is about a 50% boost in hp, but it is close to the surge line.  Still, I could start with less of an overdrive to begin with.  The CCW is attractive in that I can drive it direct from the crankshaft.  And it is a small package with its own built in oil pump.  But, the intake is only 34mm and output 28mm??  Sounds small for producing up to 75hp.
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Offline sabat

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Re: Using a supercharger map
« Reply #14 on: December 19, 2013, 04:37:28 PM »
I'd see if you can find someone who is using it, and get some real-world feedback. Or talk with a Rotrex tech or distributor and see what they think.