The Math of a new venue?

[robfrey]

I was just wondering. Has anybody done the math on the feasibility on building a LSR specific track some where in the corn fields of Nebraska or Iowa. I'm thinking 8 miles of asphalt lined with grass at the same level as the asphalt. It would need to splay out on both sides in a V pattern to give added run off room as speeds increased. Corn stalks may make an excellent soft wall if someone really got off course and would dissipate energy nicely.

Advantages-
1) much less course prep (will need to cut grass or harvest wheat before an event).
2) higher traction, more consistent racing surface.
3) much less weather dependent.
4) bigger racing season
5) more central location for USA racers.
6) less corrosion on everything

Disadvantages-
1) high initial cost
2) will need different tires developed for the faster classes.
3) further tow for the west coast crowd and roots if our sport

As the salt continues to deteriorate, we may need to start looking at another plan or our sport will go by the wayside.

[jimwebb]

Great question. I have pondered on this many, many times. In 2006 $$, the estimated rural cost of highway quality road was 3.1 -9.1 million per lane mile. That might be an obstacle.

[mitchell968]

sounds cool .  wouldnt we have to hand pick the ears of corn in order to have a wall of soft corn stalks ? that could be done , i guess.  speed week at the dent flats ?

[DND]

With Pavement how are you going to keep it flat enough for 8 miles, dealing with the cold temps in the winter that buckles roads?

Maybe a little farther south with a more mild climate

[desotoman]

It is a great idea. To build 4 courses would be $$$$$$$$$$$$.

But................

For that kind of money why not buy Intrepid's Wendover division instead. They you can control everything and not have to reinvent the wheel.

It is OK to dream isn't it.

Tom G.

[Seldom Seen Slim]

Cold weather all by itself doesn't buckle the roads, but when you add traffic all year long - then things'll go to hell in a handbasket.  Make the road proper blacktop (asphalt to some of you, tarmac to others) with good subsurface preparation and you'll have a very smooth road.  The buckles usually come from poor preparation that allows water to be under the pavement so it can freeze and expand -- or poor preparation that allows water to seep down between the individual slabs of concrete, which water then freezes and then expands -- making a buckled surface.

As long as the surface isn't stressed by continuous traffic it can stay pristine and have little or no buckling, little or no bumps.  As long as you're spending the money to buy all that land and build a road -- spend more and do a great job of it.  You might have to spend big money to build overpasses to allow cross traffic, and then you'd have to worry about how to avoid having bridge abutments, and - and - and. . so on.  but it ought to be doable.  Who'll offer the first $500,000 seed money?

[Sumner]

....For that kind of money why not buy Intrepid's Wendover division instead. They you can control everything and not have to reinvent the wheel.  Tom G.

I've thought about that many times.  I wonder how much the place would go for.  I wonder how much they are paying for their leases?  Outbid them?

Driving down long straight roads in AZ I've also pondered a course in the desert?  I just can't envision anyplace with a paved track and not paved sides being anywhere as safe as the salt thought.  The transition could be a killer literally.  Most of the time when the NASCAR guys get on the grass at highly maintained tracks at 180-195 they do well, but getting there at 200+ or 300+ or 400+, I'm not sure the survival rate would be high. Also the 10-12 miles of track needed if you ran international records and a runoff area to the sides that would have to be maintained would be a major undertaking.

One thing I have noticed on the salt is that now we can run out onto the very thin to no salt and not sink in usually as was always the case 10-15 years ago.  I feel that the clay? under the salt is now actually drying out more and getting harder.  I would not like to see it go there, but at some point the salt flats might become a very large El Mirage.  There also are other dry lake beds in the west that are larger than El Mirage and might eventually be an option.  Black Rock has been used obviously but I hear it is really littered with debris.

Hopefully it isn't too late to actually save the salt flats, but until the BLM truly gets on board that isn't going to happen.  It just boils down to the fact that mining of the salt has to stop period.  Mining and replenishment isn't going to get it in the long run,

Sum

[jimwebb]

To expand/replenish the salt flats is doable, but all the salt is in the wrong places. In the not too distant future, desalination plants will be required on the west and gulf coasts. Sending the hypersaline solution via pipeline to east Wendover would be feasible, but not something you could get the public behind. A better option would be to move the course east of floating mountain and/or replenish from the GSL. Of course, shutting down Intrepid would be a bonus.
Width of paving, runoff areas are really big hurdles when considering building anew. Id there a commercial customer that might need that type of facility?
The Shuttle runway is 15,000 ft long plus 1,000 feet runoff on each end. I have no idea what it cost.

[manta22]

Jon;

"...and then you'd have to worry about how to avoid having bridge abutments..."

Yes, the death of Bernd Rosemeyer (sp?) in an Auto-Union was caused by this.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ

[Milwaukee Midget]

I've studied this idea myself.

A good starting point would be to find an abandoned section of rail road track.  Half the initial grading would be done, and it would give you a nominally flat plumb line to build out from.

What has typically happened in Wisconsin, Iowa, Nebraska and Illinois has been the right-of-way has been in some way put under the care of quasi-governmental partnerships with a bicycle trail organizations and snowmobilers.

What might be cool would be working with such an organization with the understanding that a section of it would be paved for LSR with alternative routing for bicyclists.  The track would revert back to a really nice bike path on non race days.

The big down-side is that to be safe from deer, you would need to build out a significantly large apron from the track, at which point you'd likely be abutting farms or other private property.

Even as large as the area is around the carousel at Road America, I've seem deer nearly take out cars.  So while it may appear desolate, there's a lot of wildlife in those corn fields. 

Most venison in the Midwest is corn fed, and often grilled.

[aircap]

The high plains are a terrible place for LSR. The wind blows nearly ALL the time, and I'm not talking breezes. Most folks on the high plains don't even consider 20MPH much of a wind, and don't complain until it's over 40. No way you can stay on the course in those winds, let alone set records.

[hawkwind]

Strewth.....I would be light years cheaper for all of you to come down under to Lake Gairdner

[JimL]

Thinner air is your friend when dealing with aero stability of a non-flying vehicle.  Back when I was racing sailboards, I quickly learned that crashes at sea level come quick and hard, and the margins are much thinner.  When we got caught by a gust and didnt unhook, we called it a TOAD, which stands for "Take Off And Die"!

 At higher altitudes in Colorado I could carry 25-30% more sail area, and it was more forgiving on the edge, at the same wind speeds.  All in all, it was a pretty good lesson about air density.

I like Bonneville just fine.

JimL

[Tman]

I've studied this idea myself.

A good starting point would be to find an abandoned section of rail road track.  Half the initial grading would be done, and it would give you a nominally flat plumb line to build out from.

What has typically happened in Wisconsin, Iowa, Nebraska and Illinois has been the right-of-way has been in some way put under the care of quasi-governmental partnerships with a bicycle trail organizations and snowmobilers.

What might be cool would be working with such an organization with the understanding that a section of it would be paved for LSR with alternative routing for bicyclists.  The track would revert back to a really nice bike path on non race days.

The big down-side is that to be safe from deer, you would need to build out a significantly large apron from the track, at which point you'd likely be abutting farms or other private property.

Even as large as the area is around the carousel at Road America, I've seem deer nearly take out cars.  So while it may appear desolate, there's a lot of wildlife in those corn fields. 

Most venison in the Midwest is corn fed, and often grilled.

I have helped on some bicycle Rails To Trails conversions. You would NEVER get it done. It is a big enough fight to get bikes crossing through folks private lands and fields let alone extremely noisy and fast cars.

[jacksoni]

Curious how many "Wendovians" are employed by Intrepid and what the town might think about shutting down the plant?