My '59 Enfield /Indian 750cc Chief High Compression Build

[Sumner]

Scottie,
If you aren't up to "information overload" yet, I'm going to bring up a few more things you might want to research with fuel injection.  I only know what I've been reading, and you are probably doing the same thing.

Fuel pump:  You're going to need a  high pressure fuel pump as fuel injection systems work at about 42 psi with a return line to the fuel tank.  With supercharging, you might also need a boost regulated pump if that 42 psi is required to be above MAP.  I think these pumps run continuously, so a larger battery may be required as I doubt if you'll be running a charging system.
Fuel injectors: you'll have to determine the "required fuel" for methanol for the horsepower you expect to make in order to size the proper injectors.
Sensors: You apparently can get away with "Alpha N" tuning, as you really don't care if it runs well at anything other than WOT.  This means you can probably get away with TPS and RPM sensing.  You will probably need a crankshaft position trigger wheel with a Hall or VR sensor to tell the computer exact RPM, unless M.S. can use a tach signal, but there again, most ignition systems use wasted spark.  The Megamanual  and Megasquirt forums should be able to answer those questions, but there are not a lot of examples out there with Megasquirt, EFI, and supercharged vintage pushrod motors.

Other sensors you may need are MAP, AFR(wide band) and EGO or CHT.  I don't think you will need CLT or IAT as Megasquirt can be set to ignore these numbers.  In fact, M.S. does not even use A/FR after 70% throttle opening.  But, a good A/FR gauge is the first best gauge you'll ever want after a tachometer, as it will get you close on jetting even before a dyno or salt flat run.  CHT or EGT and oil pressure are nice to know, but you just can't look at them at 150+ mph! A data logging system is essential for reviewing data between runs. I've gotten away without one so far (just lucky, I guess).  I believe M.S. allows data logging that you can review after your run without having a separate data logger.

The only gauge I can monitor while riding is my big Scitsu analogue tachometer, and I keep my clutch hand at the ready for anything that might go bang.  With the data logging system that I have installed for this year, I hope to learn a lot more than what my seat-of-the-pants system has taught me.

Good points.  

I believe that the MS3-Pro will work down to 6 volts which would be a big help in that department.  We run a separate battery on the Stude to avoid having the Innovate data-logging dropping out during starting.

MS can read a tach signal.  I'd also suggest air/fuel, rpm, TPS, map, CHT, fuel pressure, and the oil pressure.  MS can do all of that plus more.  With a turbo it also has waste-gate control.  If you get a wideband air/fuel gauge, such as one from Innovate, MS can data-log it.  MS will work with a narrow band O2 sensor but I wouldn't do that on anything other than a street vehicle.  For a race vehicle you are going to want wideband O2 and MS cannot control a wideband O2 sensor so you need to use the gauge that has the wideband output that MS needs or another wideband O2 controller with the correct output.

It can be setup to run Alpha N but they say only on a na motor and have this warning:

MegaSquirt can be converted from speed-density to use RPM , temperature and TPS only. This is called "Alpha-N". Alpha-N uses the only throttle position and RPM to calculate the amount of fuel to inject as opposed to using the manifold absolute pressure and RPM to calculate the amount of fuel to inject.

With boosted engines, you MUST use the speed density algorithm with MegaSquirt® EFI Controller, because the throttle position bears little relationship to the amount of air going into the engine. Alpha-N is for naturally aspirated engines ONLY.

Using the speed-density algorithm, MAP is the main variable and VE is a 'tweak'. On alpha-N the VE table is the main variable, as TPS is used as a lookup into this table. Actually it is a fuel map rather than a VE table.

Alpha-N is useful for long duration cams where the resolution of manifold air pressure (map) would be small. It is also useful to get smother idle on engines that have erratic map values.

On the data-logging as far as I know all versions of MS will data-log but most require a computer to be connected when you are running the engine (in the pits or on the run).  
The MS3-Pro and MS-III have the option to internally data-log at any time with the SD card that can be inserted into them.  I think for the MS-1, MS-11 and the microaquirt you data log with a computer.  I think some have been able to data-log with one of the smaller palm computers connected during a run.

MS has come a long ways from the early days and I haven't seen anything else that can come close to it for under $1200 for the most advanced version of it the MS3-Pro and the other forms of it that cost much less have a wealth of features and will handle almost any engine out there if you don't need quite as many outputs and less data-logging,

Sum

[Scottie J]

Thanks guys!  But I actually had all of that taken into consideration already for once.   

Looks like the MegaSquirt 3 is going to work best for me.  I was already considered installing an A/F gauge and wide band o2 sensor/controller. 

Scottie J

[Koncretekid]

Sum,
I guess we should have realized that Scottie is growing up with this stuff that wasn't even thought of when we started! Thanks for clearing that up about the "Alpha N" tuning.

I'm glad that you, Scottie, are already in the know, as a lot of this info would have thrown some of us for a big loop, including me, until about two months ago when I started looking into it.  You will be my "Guinea Pig" for getting all these things sorted out.

Tom

[Scottie J]

Sum,
I guess we should have realized that Scottie is growing up with this stuff that wasn't even thought of when we started! Thanks for clearing that up about the "Alpha N" tuning.

I'm glad that you, Scottie, are already in the know, as a lot of this info would have thrown some of us for a big loop, including me, until about two months ago when I started looking into it.  You will be my "Guinea Pig" for getting all these things sorted out.

Tom

As far as growing up with EFI....  Well, chronologically speaking, yes I did.  Realistically, I was a carburated kid.  Starting with my dirt bikes, then with all my old GM (mostly Chevys) rods and trucks.  In all honestly, up until about 6 months ago when I first starting investigating the possibilities of boosting my Enfield/Indian, I was completely ANTI-EFI and wanted nothing to do with it.  Ever.  Then I started to realize that there was no easy way I could just slap a carb on and be done.  So I started doing lots of research on this matter as well thru the internet, ask/ed Alex about 20 questions a day in regards to boosting and EFI, did more research on the internet, ask/ed my head guy more questions, did more research, show Alex pictures of parts, THEN........  Well, you get the point.  Hahahaha     

I realize I was a little hard headed when I first joined this forum, and wasn't too happy with some of the things I was told.  I mean, no one really wants to hear something that completely goes against "their plan", as with others, most of my performance knowledge was based off of drag racing.  But, after being on here for a couple of weeks, I began to realize that Land Speed Racing is a whole other breed of racing, and there was so much I didn't know.  And even more I didn't know, that I didn't know I even NEEDED to know.  Which is why lately, I've been asking more questions than just saying "I'm doing this, or I'm doing that."

So even if I happen to know of something, I'm still happy and appreciate you guys bringing these kind of things up.  Because, chances are that I don't know something I need too, mostly when it comes to algebra formulas (Effing algebra kicks my ass.  I can add, subtract, multiply and divide right off the top of my head.  Give me algebra and my brain starts to smoke).

So just another thanks to everyone who has been helping me along with my project!           

Scottie J

[Sumner]

.... and there was so much I didn't know.  And even more I didn't know, that I didn't know I even NEEDED to know. ....        Scottie J

20+ years of being interested in this deal and I still find that to be true all the time  . 

With the advent of the internet we have all had a tremendous advantage over those that pioneered this sport before the internet when information sharing was so hard to come by, especially if you lived outside the area where you could at least be a member of one of the SCTA clubs.  You now have access to information over a few weeks that would of taken years to come by if at all 25-30 years ago and further back.  No wonder new records are happening all the time now,

Sum

[Koncretekid]

Keep the faith.  Stuart Hooper, who came to the BUB speed trials a few years ago had a good run at the Salt at  Lake Gairdner with his single cylinder supercharged Velocette on Methanol.

[panic]

I'm beginning to have an odd feeling...

Materiam superabat opus.

[Graham in Aus]

Materiam superabat opus.

OK....... Oh yeah, I'm always seeing lots of quotes from Ovid's metamorphoses on racing forums (Oh and it is forums not 'fora')

I've just got to get better 'read'  

(Love this place!  )

[Koncretekid]

My Latin is not so good, so I Googled the saying.  I got the answer in Italian and French.  In plain English: "Workmanship was better than the subject matter."  I'm still in the dark.  Panic, please elaborate!

[SPARKY]

LOL   

[Sumner]

My Latin is not so good, so I Googled the saying.  I got the answer in Italian and French.  In plain English: "Workmanship was better than the subject matter."  I'm still in the dark.  Panic, please elaborate!

Well after reading about Stuart in the BRN as seeing the extensive mods he did to the engine I'm not sure how much 'Velo' is left in the Velocette and I think Panic might be saying if you are going to put that much workmanship into a bike maybe a different one to start with would of been better.

I'm just the messenger, so don't shoot me and I'll have to say Stuart might of had about the same success regardless of which bike he started with considering his skills,

Sum

[Scottie J]

My Latin is not so good, so I Googled the saying.  I got the answer in Italian and French.  In plain English: "Workmanship was better than the subject matter."  I'm still in the dark.  Panic, please elaborate!

Well after reading about Stuart in the BRN as seeing the extensive mods he did to the engine I'm not sure how much 'Velo' is left in the Velocette and I think Panic might be saying if you are going to put that much workmanship into a bike maybe a different one to start with would of been better.

I'm just the messenger, so don't shoot me and I'll have to say Stuart might of had about the same success regardless of which bike he started with considering his skills,

Sum

And my question is, why would I want to build something that everyone else is building?  Isn't more rewarding to set an impressive record with something that most people have never heard of?  And a lot of the people who have heard of it are convinced you're going to blow yourself up?  I Do!!!  I'd rather take this Enfield and build something WAY beyond what anyone else has done before than take a Honda or Suzuki and just buy a bunch of boxes off of a shelf and put it together.  It adds more excitement to the adventure!  It adds more expense too, but you get what you pay for.     

I think I'm going to send out a conrod to R&R this coming week and get started on those and order pistons up so I can get the rotating assembly out to Mondello's for balancing, get the piston tops ceramic coated and check clearances with the custom valve train.  I think the heads are nearing completion.

Scottie J

[Sumner]

My Latin is not so good, so I Googled the saying.  I got the answer in Italian and French.  In plain English: "Workmanship was better than the subject matter."  I'm still in the dark.  Panic, please elaborate!

Well after reading about Stuart in the BRN as seeing the extensive mods he did to the engine I'm not sure how much 'Velo' is left in the Velocette and I think Panic might be saying if you are going to put that much workmanship into a bike maybe a different one to start with would of been better.

I'm just the messenger, so don't shoot me and I'll have to say Stuart might of had about the same success regardless of which bike he started with considering his skills,

Sum

And my question is, why would I want to build something that everyone else is building?  Isn't more rewarding to set an impressive record with something that most people have never heard of?  And a lot of the people who have heard of it are convinced you're going to blow yourself up?  I Do!!!  I'd rather take this Enfield and build something WAY beyond what anyone else has done before than take a Honda or Suzuki and just buy a bunch of boxes off of a shelf and put it together.  It adds more excitement to the adventure!  It adds more expense too, but you get what you pay for.     

I think I'm going to send out a conrod to R&R this coming week and get started on those and order pistons up so I can get the rotating assembly out to Mondello's for balancing, get the piston tops ceramic coated and check clearances with the custom valve train.  I think the heads are nearing completion.

Scottie J

I might be mistaken but I don't think the comments above were about you unless Panic was relating you to Stuart.  I wasn't I have no problem with someone going down a different path, I have most of my life  ,

Sum

[Scottie J]

I might be mistaken but I don't think the comments above were about you unless Panic was relating you to Stuart.  I wasn't I have no problem with someone going down a different path, I have most of my life

I thought that's what panic was implying, but either way.   

[panic]

Just a gentle elbow nudge that no matter how carefully the mods are executed there will still be limitations native to the original design, and you won't know what they are until very late in the game.

And yes, you should do it anyway!