My '59 Enfield /Indian 750cc Chief High Compression Build

[Scottie J]

Something like this would work good.  Simple and plain.  But I think 65mm is going to be on the big side.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Alloy-Aluminum-Universal-CNC-Billet-Intake-Throttle-Body-65mm-2-5-inch-Racing-/350657550120?pt=AU_Car_Parts_Accessories&hash=item51a4d19728

Scottie J

[Peter Jack]

I like that idea Scottie with the injectors pointed right at the valves if possible.

Pete

[Scottie J]

Actually, this is more like it!

http://www.ebay.com/itm/KTM-250-42mm-Keihin-EFI-throttle-Body-Intake-EMS-System-250SXF-xcf-w-11-12-13-14-/121285192555?pt=Motorcycles_Parts_Accessories&hash=item1c3d292b6b&vxp=mtr

Scottie J

[Sumner]

... The more I think about it the more I think I should just do some research and find an appropriate sized throttle body for a bike and building a plenum with individual injectors mounted just before the heads and running a Mega Squirt system.  Scottie J

That is what I'm doing with the lakester.  More learning up front but a lot of flexibility down the road and less money than anything else that I know of,

Sum

[Scottie J]

... The more I think about it the more I think I should just do some research and find an appropriate sized throttle body for a bike and building a plenum with individual injectors mounted just before the heads and running a Mega Squirt system.  Scottie J

That is what I'm doing with the lakester.  More learning up front but a lot of flexibility down the road and less money than anything else that I know of,

Sum

Are you by chance utilizing a a Mega Squirt unit?

And I was just thinking, that second TB I posted is a 42mm for a 250cc KTM.  Perhaps using a 65mm isn't a bad idea after all?   



Scottie J

[Sumner]

....Are you by chance utilizing a a Mega Squirt unit?....

I'll be getting one from Jerry at DIYAutotune.com, he is a land speed racer.  I'm going to get the MS3-Pro...

http://www.diyautotune.com/ms3-pro.html

.. for what I'm doing and it will also be what I use to data-logging. 

You might want to look at the microsquirt....

http://www.diyautotune.com/catalog/microsquirt-c-35.html

On the throttle body going larger doesn't hurt near as much as if you went with too large of a carb since it is just metering air.

I've been following the megasquirt line for I guess over 10 years now and it is time to finally jump in,

Sum

[Scottie J]

I was just reading all the features on the different units on the MegaSquirt page and I'm thinking the MegaSquirt 2 is going to work best for me as it has an optional boost control feature which could be handy with the supercharger.  Also from found out from Alex (engine/turbo specialist friend/co-worker) today that I there may be a business college who is a tuner and has a dyno that I may be able to talk into getting involved with my build for tuning purposes.  I'm going to hopefully talk to him in the next week or so as I want to get my '95 Legacy dynoed before and after we do the hi-compression 2.5l motor swap next week.   

Scottie J

[Scottie J]

Sum - It looks like DIYautotune.com is the place to get the MegaSquirts from?  From what I can see they have done a little bit more R&D into the kits and have more features and additional parts, like injectors and sensors, to complete the install.  I also like the looks of the box the controller is mounted in, it looks like it is well built and air/dust tight.  This is the kit I'm looking at:

http://www.diyautotune.com/catalog/megasquirtii-ems-system-smd-pcb357-assembled-ecu-p-171.html

Scottie J

[manta22]

Scottie;

I've used those types of cases before on other projects and they are nice. They consist of two aluminum extrusions that fit together with a tongue & groove; the end plates screw into the extrusions and lock the case together.

For additional protection from water & salt, you could pull both endplates off & separate the case halves. Put a small bead of RTV or Hylomar in the extrusion grooves and on the ends of the cases so when re-assembled the gaps are completely sealed. A coating of non-corrosive RTV around the rear of the connectors and pins will complete the weatherproofing.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ

[Sumner]

Sum - It looks like DIYautotune.com is the place to get the MegaSquirts from?  From what I can see they have done a little bit more R&D into the kits and have more features and additional parts, like injectors and sensors, to complete the install.  I also like the looks of the box the controller is mounted in, it looks like it is well built and air/dust tight.  This is the kit I'm looking at:

http://www.diyautotune.com/catalog/megasquirtii-ems-system-smd-pcb357-assembled-ecu-p-171.html

Scottie J

 

It looks like these would also take care of your ignition control on and off boost (might have to make some trigger wheels possibly or adapt what you have).

I'd also take a hard look at...



...the MS3-Pro....

http://www.diyautotune.com/ms3-pro.html

.. It is more money up front but has a number of other features and I believe a fair amount more data-logging abilities.  For you one really nice thing is it has is a removable SD card that it data-logs on.  So you would have data after a run.  I think the one you are looking at only data-logs to a computer and I don't think you want to carry a computer with you on the bike.  In a car that isn't as big a deal.  It is also sealed better and more of a plug and play than the other models. 

It also comes with a wiring harness...



http://www.diyautotune.com/catalog/ms3pro-standalone-ecu-with-839-wiring-harness-p-538.html

...in the base price.

You probably don't need all of the features, but they are there if you do need them down the road, even traction control  ,

Sum

[Scottie J]

I actually just got an email back from MegaSquirt and that guy is recommending I use the MicroSquirt system.  I will look into that model a little more on lunch and see if it data logs or not.  I definitely want that feature.  That SD card set up is pretty cool too.

Scottie J

[Sumner]

I actually just got an email back from MegaSquirt and that guy is recommending I use the MicroSquirt system.  I will look into that model a little more on lunch and see if it data logs or not.  I definitely want that feature.  That SD card set up is pretty cool too.

Scottie J

Due to space constraints I'm sure the MicroSquirt is the common one for a bike and why I mentioned it earlier but make sure he knows your intended use and the flexibility you will want down the road.  The Pro is bigger but still not that huge and I'll bet you could find a place to mount it,

Sum

[panic]

 Large TB makes the small tip-in angles very nervous, difficult to set fuel.

[JimL]

In the early days of Vehicle Stability Control and Traction Control, finite low throttle angle control was done by using two small throttle bodies instead of one large one.  With faster ECUs and better software, thats gone, these days.  I should mention that both MAP and hot wire AFM systems have greatest response sensitivity at lower intake airflows...by the time you get near high power settings, the ECU map is pretty much in speed-throttle angle mode.

Dual throttle bodies on a supercharged engine might need airflow control where the runner length is short to the blower inlet.  A T shape vane, behind each throttle plate, can straighten the flow to the blower inlet, but the angle of the T will be try-by-testing and they didnt match on the project I was working on.

Some of the better "cold air intake" kits use this type of device to straighten airflow ahead of the hot wire air flow meter.  If they dont work it out, those kits can often create flat spots during full throttle acceleration.

Complicated stuff, thats for certain.

Jim

PS:  mentioning the AFM reminded me.....watch out where you use a MAP sensor if you dont have much plenum volume behind your blower.  You can get into some unexpected voltage signals that your ECM may or may not choose to smooth out with fast RMS processing.  When I see unstable MAP numbers (use an oscilloscope!), I try running with 2-3 feet of hose to the MAP sensor, coiled.  If the signal cleans up a little, I know I am hammering the intake tract (combination of intake event frequency, blower rotor frequency, and volume/tuned lengths.). All this makes me long for a good FFT spectrum analyzer hidden under my work bench, but those days are long gone....like the song says, "time just slips away".

PPS:  ...by the way, if you have to run long MAP hose, mount your sensor high and make the hose downhill all the way to your plenum.  Hydrocarbons in the intake will pool in the sensor hose (along with moisture) and sludge the hose.  Nuthin' sticks to the inside of rubber hose like oil and water!  You will go lean when this happens.

Ok...I'll stop now.

[Koncretekid]

Scottie,
If you aren't up to "information overload" yet, I'm going to bring up a few more things you might want to research with fuel injection.  I only know what I've been reading, and you are probably doing the same thing.

Fuel pump:  You're going to need a  high pressure fuel pump as fuel injection systems work at about 42 psi with a return line to the fuel tank.  With supercharging, you might also need a boost regulated pump if that 42 psi is required to be above MAP.  I think these pumps run continuously, so a larger battery may be required as I doubt if you'll be running a charging system.
Fuel injectors: you'll have to determine the "required fuel" for methanol for the horsepower you expect to make in order to size the proper injectors.
Sensors: You apparently can get away with "Alpha N" tuning, as you really don't care if it runs well at anything other than WOT.  This means you can probably get away with TPS and RPM sensing.  You will probably need a crankshaft position trigger wheel with a Hall or VR sensor to tell the computer exact RPM, unless M.S. can use a tach signal, but there again, most ignition systems use wasted spark.  The Megamanual  and Megasquirt forums should be able to answer those questions, but there are not a lot of examples out there with Megasquirt, EFI, and supercharged vintage pushrod motors.

Other sensors you may need are MAP, AFR(wide band) and EGO or CHT.  I don't think you will need CLT or IAT as Megasquirt can be set to ignore these numbers.  In fact, M.S. does not even use A/FR after 70% throttle opening.  But, a good A/FR gauge is the first best gauge you'll ever want after a tachometer, as it will get you close on jetting even before a dyno or salt flat run.  CHT or EGT and oil pressure are nice to know, but you just can't look at them at 150+ mph! A data logging system is essential for reviewing data between runs. I've gotten away without one so far (just lucky, I guess).  I believe M.S. allows data logging that you can review after your run without having a separate data logger.

The only gauge I can monitor while riding is my big Scitsu analogue tachometer, and I keep my clutch hand at the ready for anything that might go bang.  With the data logging system that I have installed for this year, I hope to learn a lot more than what my seat-of-the-pants system has taught me.