My '59 Enfield /Indian 750cc Chief High Compression Build

[Koncretekid]

This is the EFI system I'm looking at.

http://www.ecotrons.com/products/400cc_to_800cc_engine_fuel_injection_kit/

Scottie

They look like an interesting kit.  I've priced buying the components separately on eBay, and you can't even get used systems for less.  Make sure they know, as Peter Jack suggested, that you are planning to use Methanol, because the pump and injectors will have to pump twice as much fuel as well as being compatible with alcohol.  Also make sure the O2 sensor is wide band and that they know that you're planning to supercharge.  I'll be watching closely because I'd like to try something similar in the future.

[wobblywalrus]

This is the time to figure out the horsepower you will need to get to your desired speed and the fuel consumption rate to support the horsepower.  It will be more than a system designed for an 800cc gasoline motor.

[Scottie J]

This is the time to figure out the horsepower you will need to get to your desired speed and the fuel consumption rate to support the horsepower.  It will be more than a system designed for an 800cc gasoline motor.

Absolutely.  I was planning on starting the fuel curve somewhere equivalent to a 850cc N/A motor.  They indicate a 42mm TB is used for a factory DR650.  I'm guessing I will want use the 50mm or 55mm TB.  Possibly even the 60mm.  Also, if the fuel injector is mounted in the TB, is there any advantage or problems with mounting the TB after the blower on the head?  Or does the TB need to be on the inlet of the blower to properly atomize?  Any input on this?

Scottie

[Sumner]

This is the time to figure out the horsepower you will need to get to your desired speed and the fuel consumption rate to support the horsepower.  It will be more than a system designed for an 800cc gasoline motor.

Absolutely.  I was planning on starting the fuel curve somewhere equivalent to a 850cc N/A motor.  They indicate a 42mm TB is used for a factory DR650.  I'm guessing I will want use the 50mm or 55mm TB.  Possibly even the 60mm.  Also, if the fuel injector is mounted in the TB, is there any advantage or problems with mounting the TB after the blower on the head?  Or does the TB need to be on the inlet of the blower to properly atomize?  Any input on this?

Scottie

You'd want the TB after the blower and after the intercooler as was mentioned above in your thread.

I realize some of the suggestions might seem negative but just trying to help.  With that in mind this kit seems to actually have too much for the price so I wonder if it is too good to be true.  I'm wondering if it is mainly for a na situation even though they talk about an optional higher boost level.  If it uses a true wide-band O2 and a controller that is needed for one they are at least $150 just for that part of the deal.

You are going to want something that is very tunable.  Will you have full control over the fuel mapping with this?  What size injectors are you going to be able to use.  The price is tempting but some other systems are going to also have really flexible data logging included with them and what maybe the most important a larger user base that will be there to help you.  You can't hardly put a price on that.

I goggled the system some and couldn't find out a lot about it other than the manufacture's info and not much at all in using it in a blown situation.  I'd want to have more info on all of that before becoming committed to this system.

Good luck with whatever you decide on,

Sum

[Koncretekid]

I don't personally have any experience with EFI or supercharging yet, but these are my thoughts on what I would do. In order to use an intercooler, I would mount the throttle body on the intake manifold on the head.  The injector would work fine mounted in the TB.  The beauty of the EFI (I think) is that it can respond to changes in intake compression and change the pulse width as needed to maintain the AFR over a wider range.  The supercharger then only compresses air, which makes it safer.  The compressed air can be cooled to increase efficiency without the danger of the fuel dropping out of suspension in the plenum.  I also think you may be able to get away with the 42mm throttle body, or a little larger, because you are pressurizing the air supply so the smaller TB should work.  I think you're going to have a hard time getting intake passages in the head to flow enough to justify a 50mm TB.  Remember, only one cylinder draws at a time, so each cylinder is only 400cc.  The DR650 is a single cylinder motor and takes larger gulps.

Hopefully somebody with experience on this subject will chime in.

P.S. I see Sum has chimed in while I was writing this, but I'll post it anyway.

Tom

[thefrenchowl]

Did an excel sheet with the RE dimms, sommat like this for 7 to 1 static CR:



Gives you an idea of what the calcs are. Yellow line is 10psi boost, red line is max boost ratio for the Ansin, 1.8. Last line is methanol usage at theorical 6/1 weight ratio for the revs listed in column C, absolutly proven wrong on my bike so far   ...

Patrick

[generatorshovel]

The is some interesting reading here
http://wbo2.com/lsu/lsuworks.htm
Tiny

[Scottie J]

Thanks Patrick!  That is great!   

The is some interesting reading here
http://wbo2.com/lsu/lsuworks.htm
Tiny

I'll to read that info sometime today.  Thanks!

[Scottie J]

Picked up the donor bike over the weekend and started gutting it out.  It's my old GS550ESD.  It was caught in the floods we had let fall.  Good news is that the new Koso digital speedo still works so I'll be able to use that on the Chief as it reads up to 224 mph.  Hopefully be able to start mocking up the chassis this week.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YF-TaJ5JV2A&feature=youtube_gdata_player

Scottie

[Scottie J]

I finished stripping down the GS550 yesterday.  The frame is now bare except for the motor which is only being held in buy 4 bolts, just need an extra set of hands to yank it out.  Looks like the swingarm and wheel should switch right over to the Chief with minimum modifications.  I haven't been able to compare the 2 side by side yet, but it looks like the width of the swingarms where the pivot bolt mounts to the frame are about the same width too.  I'm pretty sure I can get it bolted right up with maybe a couple of bushings for the pivot point.  I'll just need to weld in an upper shock mount to mount the mono shock in the center of the seat area.  The best part of using this swingarm is that aside from the mounts being close to the same sizes, the GS swingarm is exactly 5" longer than the RE swingarm.  The +10% wheel base rule gives me a MAX of a 6" stretch on the bike.  The GS swingarm being 5" longer than factory should get me long enough to help stabilize for high speeds, but without breaking the rules.  Or further more, not being so close to within the rules that the officials may question the legality of my build.

It will take a little more work to get some custom rear sets mounted nice and far back.  They will be mounted up about 6.5-7" ahead of the rear wheel axle, which will move them back about 14" from the original foot peg location.  I will also be mounting clip-on bars that will be mounted as far down on top of the lower triple tree as possible.  This combination should allow my 6' tall body to lay out nice and flat on the bike with a real tight body tuck.  This is important as I've decided to break my first few records without a fairing, so body positioning is going to be crucial for trying to cut through that salty air.   









I can't believe it!  Seriously!           So I went back out and played in the garage for a little bit this afternoon to take some measurements of the swingarm.  The factory RE swingarm is exactly 8 1/2" wide where the pivot bolt mounts to the frame.  The Suzuki swingarm?  8 19/32"!!!!  Not even an 1/8" wider than what is already there, practically a PERFECT fit!  Also, not going to get the 5" stretch that I thought I was going to.  It's just shy of a 4" stretch from axle to axle.  Not quite as long as I was hoping, but 4" is better than what was there.  The large bracket on the bottom of the swingarm is going to get removed.  The set up had this super goofy triple hinge shock mount thing going on.  Complicated and unnecessary weight, so I'll be mounting the shock to the bracket on TOP of the swingarm and the top of the shock will be mounted under the seat.









Scottie

[Koncretekid]

Too bad the RE motor won't fit in the GS frame (which would put you in A class).  I just hate to see you cut up that beautiful Indian.  Salt is going to eat it away.
Tom

[Scottie J]

Oh!  That is my '58 trailblazer in those pics, she's my rider.  I was just using it for reference as the Chief chassis is identical.   

Scottie

[Scottie J]

I sat down this morning and was played some gearing calculators.  Basically, with 100hp at the block and a 3.14 final drive ratio I should be able to achieve 140mph at 6000 RPMs, and 160mph if I attempt to hit 7000 RPMs.  Here are the different charts:

Factory OEM Gearing For The Chief


21 Tooth Front/39 Tooth Rear 6000 RPMs



21 Tooth Front/39 Tooth Rear 6500 RPMs


21 Tooth Front/39 Tooth Rear 7000 RPMs


Stock Gear Ratios


Needed Gear Ratios


Scottie

[Sumner]

These might also help you...

http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/bvillecar/bville-spreadsheet-index.html#Four%20Speed%20Motorcycle

...they will show you rpm drop between any gear at any speed without having to re-enter data.

good luck,

Sum

[Scottie J]

Sumner - I downloaded that spreadsheet when I first joined this forum and I can't get it to work.