Author Topic: Rule changes for 2014  (Read 40542 times)

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Offline desotoman

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Re: Rule changes for 2014
« Reply #15 on: November 22, 2013, 03:37:54 PM »

Tom, Sum and others, I think scoops are body panels, and the proposed rule change is about building around and over engine parts like a bug catcher for streamlining.  I could be wrong... I think that is the intent
Dan?


Thanks Stainless. I understand what the intent of the rule is but I don't think it was worded as to not confuse John Q. Public when reading the rule book, but that is JMO.



Stainless,

You have the rule correct. The question about the Hilborn style scoop vrs. a bug catcher is a touch off, I can see why. Different names for the same items. The rule for blown, top mounted blowers, hood scoops refers to additional body work built around the exposed blower and injector/carbs. The scoop shown is apart of the system and allowed. If you are building something I suggest that you get written approval for your design.

DW

Dan,

This is where I get confused. When you buy a Hilborn 4 port upright injector, it does not include the Scoop as shown in the picture. That is an option that costs more money to buy and is a bolt on unit.

So are you saying that as long as the top of the upright injector has a scoop that was made by the injector manufacturer even though it is more than 2" above the injector, it is OK? As in the second and third pictures of my first post?

Or would this all be considered under 4.B. Air Intake, and be legal? and not under 4.R Hood Scoops.

Thanks,

Tom G.
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Offline Dynoroom

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Re: Rule changes for 2014
« Reply #16 on: November 22, 2013, 03:50:33 PM »
Nothing say's you must run hood scoop on a blown engine.....
Michael LeFevers
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Offline Sumner

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Re: Rule changes for 2014
« Reply #17 on: November 22, 2013, 04:53:48 PM »
I'm not building a car that this 'scoop' rule applies to and I don't think Hooley is planning on going back to a roots type blower but for those that are I feel the new rules are putting them at a further unfair disadvantage.

Naturally aspirated, turbo cars and centrifugal blown cars can all have streamlining around their components and air inlet track.  Now it looks to me that a mechanical type blower is going to be limited on that packaging and forced into using a much larger air inlet (scoop, bug catcher) than is needed that has more frontal area with a higher Cd vs. what could be used for our cars.  

Why not just say that the blower enclosure and scoop can't extend further back than the cowl if the blower is in front of the cowl or no further back than the back of the blower if the blower is in the cowl/windshield area?

The blower enclosure/scoop can be considered part of the hood as it was ...



... on the first car I posted, before as Dan mentioned realizing that the enclosure (bubble) wasn't around a
blower.  Also note the scoop that has been made is no where near as large as a bug catcher or the other scoops above that have been declared legal.

As I understand the rules enclosures for some types of air inlets and raised parts of the hood can go beyond the cowl towards the windshield and just can't touch the windshield with one type having to remain 1 inch from it and the other type 2 inches from it depending if it is getting air from that area or not.

I admit to being guilty of not being more involved in the rule making process so please indulge a couple of possibly ignorant questions.  I did read this past summer here the discussion about the confusion surrounding blown car's scoops and what was and was not allowed.  I'm assuming the new rule is to help clarify that.  Was the new wording presented somewhere ahead of when it was approved or is the wording for these rules per-submitted but not public before being read and voted on all at one meeting.  Can someone explain the complete process or point me to where it is described?  Thanks,

Sum

Offline Dynoroom

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Re: Rule changes for 2014
« Reply #18 on: November 22, 2013, 06:35:44 PM »
Sumner, turbos / centrifugals will almost always be a better choice for blown gas and I don't think the blown fuel guys care.....

If it turns into a problem there's always the rules change form on the SCTA web site.
Michael LeFevers
Kugel and LeFevers Pontiac Firebird

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Racing is just a series of "Problem Solving" events that allow you to spend money & make noise...

Offline desotoman

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Re: Rule changes for 2014
« Reply #19 on: November 23, 2013, 12:03:11 AM »
Nothing say's you must run hood scoop on a blown engine.....

Thanks Mike, now I get it.

Tom G.
I love the USA. How much longer will we be a free nation?

Asking questions is one's only way of getting answers.

The rational person lets verified facts form or modify his opinion.  The ideologue ignores verified facts which don't fit his preconceived opinions.

Offline dw230

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Re: Rule changes for 2014
« Reply #20 on: November 23, 2013, 11:08:31 AM »
For all,

The rule process is described on page one of your rule book, last paragraph.

The basic deal is this;

You submit a rule change proposal on the type in form available on the www.scta-bni.org website. This proposal goes to Mike Manghelli who distributes to the appropriate committee chair. The proposal is discussed among the committee and the rule is then sent back to Mike for adding to the meeting agenda. If I may interject at this point, it may help you to discuss your idea with the committee chair before hand so that he/she can offer suggestions based on history and current thinking.

A couple of weeks ahead of the scheduled meeting, in early November, Mike will send the agenda out to the SCTA club presidents for discussion by their membership and solicit either a yes or no vote by a majority of the club. If you are a SCTA club member either local or out of state and was not involved in this process please contact your club president. I will admit here that only SCTA members are privy to the proposals. I cannot figure out how to allow the BNI only members to view the proposals and keep the return input somehow under control.

At the meeting a select group of people will vote on each proposal. There is some discussion, many times involving word smiting only again based on history and current philosophy. The group includes representatives from each club who will vote the club's majority. The committee chairs (or designee), the chief inspectors for both car and bike. The car guys do not vote on bike issues and the bike guys do not vote on the car proposals.

Some are passed and some are dismissed, some are withdrawn because there may be several inputs to the same rule. Sometimes a proposal will be withdrawn because a passed one will cover the same area in a different manner. All are looked at, some which will benefit a single agenda are generally dismissed as not benefiting the masses. This process takes place on a single day in 7 to 10 hour period. We have tried to do the meeting over a two day process, 1-2 weeks apart, and does not work. Personal schedules and the last SCTA meet of the year intervene.

The passed proposals are then taken by me and put into rule book format for clarity and sent to the SCTA board members for review. At the November board meeting a vote for passage is taken. There is again some discussion from the floor, this year was the V4 ignition deal. Some proposals are passed by the board, some are not. The final, approved rules are then incorporated into the rule book and sent to the printer where the text, photos, ads, etc. are assembled and printed. Oh yeah - following the final vote I will get a phone call from a committee chair saying "I forgot to delete a redundant sentence", or something like that.

Hope this answers the question of how the process works.

Questions?

DW

PS - I should be working on the rule book instead of Internet viewing

 
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Offline Sumner

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Re: Rule changes for 2014
« Reply #21 on: November 23, 2013, 11:34:45 AM »
.....A couple of weeks ahead of the scheduled meeting, in early November, Mike will send the agenda out to the SCTA club presidents for discussion by their membership and solicit either a yes or no vote by a majority of the club. If you are a SCTA club member either local or out of state and was not involved in this process please contact your club president. I will admit here that only SCTA members are privy to the proposals. ....

Thanks for taking the time to input the process, it is helpful.  The club I'm in is great about e-mailing club minutes and SCTA minutes but I don't remember seeing much about purposed rule changes.  Maybe the problem is on my end and I got it but didn't look at the e-mail with that info.  I'll check on it and try and be more informed/involved in the future.

As I've mentioned above the new rulings don't effect me so I guess I'll let those effected decide how much then might want to be involved,

Sumner

Offline grumm441

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Re: Rule changes for 2014
« Reply #22 on: November 23, 2013, 06:27:22 PM »
Hey Slim , did you get the bike rules from Matt
G
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https://www.dlra.org.au/rulebook.htm

Offline dw230

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Re: Rule changes for 2014
« Reply #23 on: November 23, 2013, 06:39:02 PM »
I sent the rule changes to Slim twice, don't know why he has not posted them.

DW
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Offline 4-barrel Mike

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Re: Rule changes for 2014
« Reply #24 on: November 23, 2013, 07:30:09 PM »
Links to the two (very readable) .pdf's havr been posted on the opening page all day.

Mike
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Offline Seldom Seen Slim

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Re: Rule changes for 2014
« Reply #25 on: November 23, 2013, 09:40:27 PM »
Oh, wow, Dan -- I didn't even notice that the bike rule changes were there.  Crap!  I'm sorry, folks, that I didn't look more carefully.  I promise I'll get 'em here in a few minutes.  That's a sacrifice -- Nancy's calling me to go to bed now. :evil:
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Offline Seldom Seen Slim

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Re: Rule changes for 2014
« Reply #26 on: November 23, 2013, 09:42:59 PM »
See what happens when you don't open each and every attachment?  I guess I assumed (that nasty word) that there were just two versions of the one set of rules.

I apologise, folks.  Here are the bike rules.  By the way -- if the formatting (bold, strike through, highlighted colors) doesn't come through (as it didn't on the car rules) - give me 'til morning to figure out why.  But anyway:

Here -- try this.  Click on it and you should get a .pdf of the Motorcycle rules/changes.

http://www.landracing.com/docs/2014_rulebook_changes_mc.pdf

Car rules pdf:
http://www.landracing.com/docs/2014_rulebook_changes_cars.pdf
« Last Edit: November 24, 2013, 09:36:44 PM by bobc »
Jon E. Wennerberg
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Offline JimL

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New helmet time, again
« Reply #27 on: November 24, 2013, 11:18:10 PM »
I havent been able to find a USA available helmet listed with both "Snell AND ECE" as the new rule requires.

My Snell 2010 Bell does NOT have the now required ECE cert.  Just got that helmet, right before Speedweek...only got 4 passes out of it. :|

It must be possible, because Kylin in China lists one for internet sale, and an English reviewer writes about a dual cert Arai RX7 GP that is not a USA available item (maybe because no DOT cert?)

Any ideas?  I'm glad we got this info early, I was thinking I'd be all set for next year (I know...you cant really do that...)

Offline racefanwfo

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Re: New helmet time, again
« Reply #28 on: November 25, 2013, 12:30:04 AM »
I was looking on wiki and it looks like the ECE cert is for helmets sold in europe and in other country's and the snell cert is for helmets sold here in the usa. The testing for helmets be it ece or snell looks about the same. so i would think that if your helmet has ece or snell you can use it. now the thing is are the helmet company's going to put both cert's on there helmets no matter where they are going to be sold. will scta accept a helmet with just one cert be it ece or snell or will the helmet need both cert's to be legal. the way i read the rule is if you come across the pond then your helmet must have the ece cert but if you are here in the usa then your helmet will have the snell cert.
« Last Edit: November 25, 2013, 01:09:51 AM by racefanwfo »
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Offline Vinsky

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Re: Rule changes for 2014
« Reply #29 on: November 25, 2013, 12:50:28 AM »
I hope someone will clairify "allowing European" helmet specs vs "which shall meet
Snell Foundation M2005 or later specifications and European ECE 22.05.05, 2010 or newer"
John