Author Topic: Blue Flame in Sinsheim  (Read 24085 times)

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Offline TD

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Re: Blue Flame in Sinsheim
« Reply #45 on: December 06, 2013, 02:27:32 PM »
In an earlier posting TrickyDicky you mentioned the use of 1% improvement for the necessary approval of a class record set over a particular measured distance and starting method.

When there was this 1% requirement, it was applied to the various world records for each of the distances, even though groups, classes, capacities or weights are not taken into account.

Look at the FIA standing start 1 mile 'world' record (BMW, Hydrogen car) and then at the slightly faster 1 mile standing start record in the FIA nornally aspirated 250cc class.

Nothing has been changed, even though the "1% improvement rule" has now been removed from Appendix D.

[A British driver is not being acknowledged for his performance being the 'best in the world'].


Do you mean that as a result of the rule modification "a British driver is not being acknowledged..." ?

If so, a bit of whinge, don't you think?  After all, said British driver was in fact credited with the mile record set during the same pair of runs. 

Or do you think the records should be re-evaluated under the current rules, rather than the rules in effect at the time?

Offline Stan Back

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Re: Blue Flame in Sinsheim
« Reply #46 on: December 06, 2013, 04:44:24 PM »
I guess I'm opening the spigot earlier any more -- I'm having a h-ell of a time following all this.
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Offline Seldom Seen Slim

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Re: Blue Flame in Sinsheim
« Reply #47 on: December 06, 2013, 05:01:29 PM »
I finally looked it up after seeing the words for a bunch of posts - and years.  Whinge and whine are basically the same in the present usage.  To whinge and to whine means to complain excessively and continuingly (new word, but it's better than continuously).

Whinge is British, whine is American.  Whine does also mean a high pitched sound, often but not always annoying, and includes the concept of a kid whining in a complaining manner, or perhaps the meshing of gears in a cam gear drive.

Back to the Sinsheim topic.
Jon E. Wennerberg
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Offline Malcolm UK

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Re: Blue Flame in Sinsheim
« Reply #48 on: December 06, 2013, 05:08:06 PM »
In an earlier posting TrickyDicky you mentioned the use of 1% improvement for the necessary approval of a class record set over a particular measured distance and starting method.

When there was this 1% requirement, it was applied to the various world records for each of the distances, even though groups, classes, capacities or weights are not taken into account.

Look at the FIA standing start 1 mile 'world' record (BMW, Hydrogen car) and then at the slightly faster 1 mile standing start record in the FIA nornally aspirated 250cc class.

Nothing has been changed, even though the "1% improvement rule" has now been removed from Appendix D.

[A British driver is not being acknowledged for his performance being the 'best in the world'].


Do you mean that as a result of the rule modification "a British driver is not being acknowledged..." ?

If so, a bit of whinge, don't you think?  After all, said British driver was in fact credited with the mile record set during the same pair of runs. 

Or do you think the records should be re-evaluated under the current rules, rather than the rules in effect at the time?


TD,

I could not understand how an unwritten rule for the acknowledgement of the fastest over the prescribed distance which was meant to be "without regard to class, category or group" was being applied to the (at the time - 2006) "World Records" for four or more wheeled vehicles.  My 'whinge' (just the once in writing actually - SSS) at the time was made to the FIA who confirmed they applied the 1% improvement for a second time, not just for the driver/vehicle to get into the records list in their class/category/group in the first place.

The fastest standing start mile average record speed is in the 250cc normally aspirated class at 98.093 mph (an International record), but BMW hold the standing start 1 mile World Record speed at 97.993 mph with their Hydrogen car. (This used to be a 'World Record' but is now called an 'Absolute World Record').

My observation was that no retrospective changes would be made, even though the 1% rule has now disappeared.  

But consider this: if a vehicle sets a standing start mile world record in its own class at say 98 mph, [having improved on any existing record by .001 mph], then Tony Moir would still be denied an Absolute World Record, even though his ratified speed from 2006 does exist in the same record book.

Malcolm, Derby, England

PS - Stan, be happy that the SCTA and some other governing organisations accept that a faster speed does not have to rely upon any set percentage improvement over an existing speed.

Malcolm UK, Derby, England.

Offline TrickyDicky

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FIA One Mile Standing Start Records
« Reply #49 on: December 09, 2013, 08:20:14 AM »
          1933  John Cobb – 102.52 mph
          1934  Rudolf Caracciola – 117.226 mph
          1937  Hans Stuck – 124.957 mph
          1937  Bernd Rosemeyer – 138.675 mph
          1960  Mickey Thompson – 149.23 mph and 149.93 mph
          2004  G. Weber – 97.693 mph
          2006  Tony Moir – 98.093 mph

Who is unjustly being denied recognition as holder of the Absolute World Record?

Offline Malcolm UK

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Re: FIA One Mile Standing Start Records
« Reply #50 on: December 09, 2013, 02:45:40 PM »
                    1960  Mickey Thompson – 149.23 mph and 149.93 mph
         Who is unjustly being denied recognition as holder of the Absolute World Record?
[/quote

When you find out from Paris why the records have not been retained on their listing for records up to the 60's, please let us know.

Malcolm, Derby, England.
Malcolm UK, Derby, England.

Offline PorkPie

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Re: Blue Flame in Sinsheim
« Reply #51 on: December 09, 2013, 02:46:02 PM »
          1933  John Cobb – 102.52 mph
          1934  Rudolf Caracciola – 117.226 mph
          1937  Hans Stuck – 124.957 mph
          1937  Bernd Rosemeyer – 138.675 mph
          1960  Mickey Thompson – 149.23 mph and 149.93 mph
          2004  G. Weber – 97.693 mph
          2006  Tony Moir – 98.093 mph

Who is unjustly being denied recognition as holder of the Absolute World Record?


Tricky,

don't confuse.....All this speeds are different classes/displacements....Rosemeyer's 138 record was with a 5-8 liter engine....Mickey Thompson's 149,93 was also with a 5-8 liter (305 - 488 ci) engine, the 149,23 with a 8 liter (488 ci) and more engine......
the 149,93 was an unlimited WSR and international Class B, the 149,23 was international Class A record
the other record from 1937 was also a Rosemeyer record, but in the 3-5 liter Class, which beats Caracciola's record from 1934 in the same Class....

Pork Pie

Photoartist & Historian & 200 MPH Club Member (I/GL 202.8 mph in the orig. Bockscar #1000)

Offline TrickyDicky

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Re: FIA One Mile Standing Start Records
« Reply #52 on: December 09, 2013, 03:54:08 PM »

When you find out from Paris why the records have not been retained on their listing for records up to the 60's, please let us know.

Malcolm, Derby, England.

Malcolm,

I am a rank amateur at this game.  If you really want to find out, I suggest trying David Tremayne or other historians who will have more knowledge and credibility in the eyes of Paris.

Failing that, the Speed Record Club may be able to fill in the background.  :evil:

Offline TrickyDicky

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Re: Blue Flame in Sinsheim
« Reply #53 on: December 09, 2013, 03:57:40 PM »

Tricky,

don't confuse.....All this speeds are different classes/displacements....Rosemeyer's 138 record was with a 5-8 liter engine....Mickey Thompson's 149,93 was also with a 5-8 liter (305 - 488 ci) engine, the 149,23 with a 8 liter (488 ci) and more engine......
the 149,93 was an unlimited WSR ...


Does anyone know whether Mickey Thompson's unlimited WSR was ever broken?

Offline MAYOMAN

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Re: Blue Flame in Sinsheim
« Reply #54 on: December 09, 2013, 04:52:42 PM »
Not really wanting to continue beating a dead horse to death, I am compelled to share my notice of a change in the 2014 FIA International Sporting Code, effective January 1, 2014.

Article 20 – Definitions
Page 74
Outright World Land Speed Record: A record recognized by the FIA as the best flying start Mile result with an Automobile, not taking the class category or group of the car into account.

Not the kilometer?
This is curious, considering the mile is only used in the United Kingdom and the United States; except for the auto racing powerhouses of Am. Samoa, Bahamas, Belize, British Virgin Islands, Cayman Islands, Dominica, Falkland Islands, Grenada, Guam, Myanmar, The N. Mariana Islands, Samoa, St. Lucia, St. Vincent & The Grenadines, St. Helena, St. Kitts & Nevis, the Turks & Caicos Islands, and the U.S. Virgin Islands.

In the 2013 FIA International Sporting Code, effective January 1, 2013 it currently states:
Chapter II – Nomenclature and Definitions
Page 20
37bis. Outright world land speed record
A record recognised by the FIA as the best flying start result obtained with a vehicle, not taking the class category or group of the car into account.

It had always been the fastest World Record (typically flying start kilometer OR mile) would be the Outright World Land Speed Record.
The MILE?
Really?
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Offline Stan Back

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Re: Blue Flame in Sinsheim
« Reply #55 on: December 09, 2013, 06:41:22 PM »
The horse died a couple of pages ago.
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Offline Seldom Seen Slim

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Re: Blue Flame in Sinsheim
« Reply #56 on: December 09, 2013, 06:55:23 PM »
Yes, Stan, but flogging it is so satisfying. :roll:
Jon E. Wennerberg
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Offline TrickyDicky

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Re: Blue Flame in Sinsheim
« Reply #57 on: December 10, 2013, 02:43:37 AM »
...

Article 20 – Definitions
Page 74
Outright World Land Speed Record: A record recognized by the FIA as the best flying start Mile result with an Automobile, not taking the class category or group of the car into account.

...

Perhaps the French text says "kilometre"?.  :-) :-)

Offline Malcolm UK

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Re: Blue Flame in Sinsheim
« Reply #58 on: December 11, 2013, 06:40:50 AM »

Outright World Land Speed Record: A record recognized by the FIA as the best flying start Mile result with an Automobile, not taking the class category or group of the car into account.


The US racers (including Stan and SSS) should be pleased, as this ruling - because of the definition of Automobile - recognises the record speed set by Don Vesco, which is being challenged by other US racers and by an Australian, as being an Outright World Record.

Malcolm, Derby, England.



Malcolm UK, Derby, England.

Offline TrickyDicky

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Re: Blue Flame in Sinsheim
« Reply #59 on: December 11, 2013, 07:07:17 AM »

Outright World Land Speed Record: A record recognized by the FIA as the best flying start Mile result with an Automobile, not taking the class category or group of the car into account.


The US racers (including Stan and SSS) should be pleased, as this ruling - because of the definition of Automobile - recognises the record speed set by Don Vesco, which is being challenged by other US racers and by an Australian, as being an Outright World Record.

Malcolm, Derby, England.





So the FIA will in effect be recognising an Absolute Wheel-Driven Land Speed Record, from 1 January 2014?

[Being picky, I think you meant Absolute World Record, rather than Outright World Record.]