Blue Flame in Sinsheim

[MAYOMAN]

In the end, I suppose these FIA record speed calculations, down to the third decimal, are only important to those of us who have invested in the t-shirts and posters with those speeds. But, on a lighter level, the FIA should not be revisionist when it comes to publishing these numbers.

When we built and ran The Blue Flame in 1970, I assume the text of the 1968 FIA International Sporting Code was still in effect regarding Article 226 – Distance Records. Even though that article only discusses timing to 1/100 second and the average speeds to one place of decimals, regarding the topic of “rounding” the average speeds, it states “which decimal shall be increased by one unit if the following decimal is equal or superior to 5.” Since the FIA has been publishing the world land speed record speeds to three decimal places (off and on) since 1909, and timing to the millisecond, that precedent was also taken with The Blue Flame (and the USAC/FIA Chief Steward, Joe Petrali).

Article 226 only discusses rounding the speed, not the times.
“Times counting for the record: Average of the times taken on 2 consecutive runs in opposite directions.”

So, using the FIA Code in effect at the time of The Blue Flame’s record runs:
For the mile – 3600/5.784 = 622.406639. Rounding per Article 226 gives us 622.407 mph. Voila!
For the kilometer – 3600/3.5485 = 1,014.513175. Rounding per Article 226 gives us 1,014.513 km/h.

Also, in Article 32, the 1968 FIA Code states “For all conversions of English to French measurements, and vice versa, the mile shall be taken as 1.60934 kilometre, and the kilometer shall be taken as 0.62137 mile.

Now, for the speed conversions using the values in the 1968 FIA Code Article 32.
For the mile – 622.407 mph X 1.60934 = 1,001.664481, er, 1,001.664 km/h.
For the kilometer – 1,014.513 km/h X 0.62137 = 630.3879428, er, 630.388 mph. Voila, again!

These were the times recorded and calculated by the USAC/FIA Chief Steward in 1970 using the then current FIA International Sporting Code. It seems ridiculous that someone at FIA had to fiddle with those historical numbers and create meaningless discrepancies. Following the record, I had written to FIA in Paris several times for a copy of the record certification. My request was never answered.

Anybody need a t-shirt?

[Stainless1]

Yes... I need one with or without revisionist numbers... Still was a cool car XL do you take paypal?

[sabat]

I will absolutely take a Blue Flame t-shirt, please take my money. -Dean

[racefanwfo]

I would like a BLUE FLAME t-shirt also. XXL please.

[Phil UK]

Can you sign my T-shirt (L), please?

Phil

[TrickyDicky]

Standing start (SS) mile - World Records.

I am not sure when the SS mile was 'brought back' as an approved distance by the FIA ....
 

Mayoman's extract from the 1968 version of the International Sporting Code shows that the SS mile was an approved distance at that time.

...

If the racers had a fully timed standing mile event, with two runs in each direction, completed within 60 minutes, many World records could probably be established (or could be broken).

...

Can you remind me when it became two runs in each direction?

[TrickyDicky]

Mayoman, that is gold dust.  Thank you very much.

The detail of how the FIA used to calculate record speeds helps me understand a number of apparent anomalies in the published records over the years.

All I need now is copies of the relevant paragraphs from about 97 other versions of the International Sporting Code!

...
Even though that article only discusses timing to 1/100 second and the average speeds to one place of decimals, regarding the topic of “rounding” the average speeds, it states “which decimal shall be increased by one unit if the following decimal is equal or superior to 5.”
...

The way I read it, they were saying clocks reading to 1/100 second were acceptable, but if greater accuracy was available the more precise times should be used.  And the rounding instruction is clear and mathematically sound.

Publishing record speeds to one place of decimals seems to have been ignored almost forever, with the possible exception of Donald Campbell in 1964.  Helps explains why his mile record is variously quoted as 403.1 / 403.100 / 403.135 mph.

...
Since the FIA has been publishing the world land speed record speeds to three decimal places (off and on) since 1909, and timing to the millisecond,
...

Is that a reference to Victor Hémery at Brooklands in 1909?  As far as I can tell, that was the first time clocks reading to 1/1000 second were used.  Although it is not clear whether all three decimal places in the time were used when calculating the official speed record.

...
Also, in Article 32, the 1968 FIA Code states “For all conversions of English to French measurements, and vice versa, the mile shall be taken as 1.60934 kilometre, and the kilometer shall be taken as 0.62137 mile.

Now, for the speed conversions using the values in the 1968 FIA Code Article 32.
For the mile – 622.407 mph X 1.60934 = 1,001.664481, er, 1,001.664 km/h.
For the kilometer – 1,014.513 km/h X 0.62137 = 630.3879428, er, 630.388 mph. Voila, again!
...

I love the quaint references to "English" and "French" measurements.  As if the rest of the world didn’t matter!

And:

          622.407 mph × 1.609344 = 1,001.666971

          1,014.513 km/h × 0.621371192 = 630.3891524

which explains the apparent errors in the third decimal place that have been puzzling me.

[Seldom Seen Slim]

How can I resist this opportunity - to ask a question about clock accuracy?  I can't, so - - -

When was some form of electronic sensing to start and stop timing clocks initiated?  I've seen the photos from Bonneville and El Mirage showing humans clicking a stopwatch to start and to stop, and eventually that was replaced by either what we use today -- "electric eyes" or perhaps a predecessor such as a trip wire.  But whatever - if a human was starting and stopping the clocks, how can accuracy of a thousandth of a second be claimed, since reaction time is not only appreciably longer than that tiny interval, but there's also a large amount of possible variation in the reaction time from one timer person to that of another?

Maybe electronic timing is as old as land speed records, but if it isn't - what method was used to verify accuracy when it was done by humans?

[TrickyDicky]

Electrical timing apparatus was in use at Brooklands (UK) in 1909.  This might have been the first in the world, but I don't know for sure.

See attached contemporary report.  My understanding is that this record was decided to be 1 kilometre in 17.761 seconds, so presumably considered accurate to 1/1000 second.

[Seldom Seen Slim]

Thanks.  That leaves the question open about when electrical/electronic timing moved to the US, but now we have the UK taken care of.

[manta22]

Electrical timing apparatus was in use at Brooklands (UK) in 1909.  This might have been the first in the world, but I don't know for sure.

See attached contemporary report.  My understanding is that this record was decided to be 1 kilometre in 17.761 seconds, so presumably considered accurate to 1/1000 second.

There is a big difference between accuracy and resolution. ...like a high school student using a calculator to solve a physics problem-- wrong answer but wrong with eight decimal places.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ

[floydjer]

.............................Ratliff......

[Malcolm UK]

Standing start (SS) mile - World Records.

I am not sure when the SS mile was 'brought back' as an approved distance by the FIA ....
 

Mayoman's extract from the 1968 version of the International Sporting Code shows that the SS mile was an approved distance at that time.

...

If the racers had a fully timed standing mile event, with two runs in each direction, completed within 60 minutes, many World records could probably be established (or could be broken).

...

Can you remind me when it became two runs in each direction?

January 1911 was when the Europeans started the requirement for two passes in opposite directions.  The USA did not bother for many years after that date.  The 60 minutes for the shorter distances trurn around came later (I believe instigated by the RAC MSA at the request of Malcolm Campbell).

Malcolm, Derby, England

[Malcolm UK]

Thanks.  That leaves the question open about when electrical/electronic timing moved to the US, but now we have the UK taken care of.

Probably when the European drivers, competing under "FIA" regulations. started to compete at Daytona Beach and then Bonneville and the timing had to be actuated by the passage of the vehicle (as it does to this day). So go to Segrave, Eyston, etc.......

Malcolm, Derby, England.

[PorkPie]

two way records

The two way record was since 1911 in the rule book, but it was not before the 24th June 1914.... when Hornsted, using the Blitzen-Benz #3 at Brooklands, set the first record under this new rule....very interesting...the average of this record was slower than the last certified one way record....205 km/h one way....199 km/h two way.....

one of the reason was, that some racer used for the  record attempt a extreme downhill road to set a new record...so a British gentleman who was involved in a company with the name Rolls & Royce...


timing in the beginning was done with a string crossing the road....

the one hour timing was 1925 or 26 the first time used....and it looks that the request was by Malcolm Campbell