Author Topic: Blue Flame in Sinsheim  (Read 24084 times)

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Offline PorkPie

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Blue Flame in Sinsheim
« on: November 16, 2013, 10:09:28 AM »
All the years the Blue Flame stand in the museum in Sinsheim, a picture was on the display, with the Blue Flame at the Bonneville Salt Flats...and some fellows in the foreground...who was not involved in the Blue Flame project. So Dick Keller sent me a while ago some picture from the time at the salt, to get a proper replacement for the museum.

Today the old picture was replaced by the one I prepared....here now the Blue Flame with the right picture  
« Last Edit: November 16, 2013, 10:17:10 AM by PorkPie »
Pork Pie

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Offline PorkPie

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Re: Blue Flame in Sinsheim
« Reply #1 on: November 16, 2013, 10:13:20 AM »
here one more,

Heidi is pointing on her grandfather, Dick Keller, after I had the picture out of the protection box.

Dick's granddaughter took the time to be there with us when we replaced the picture.


nope, I didn't camouflaged Heidi....she just moved the head to fast for the long exposure time......
« Last Edit: November 16, 2013, 10:15:58 AM by PorkPie »
Pork Pie

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Offline Seldom Seen Slim

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Re: Blue Flame in Sinsheim
« Reply #2 on: November 16, 2013, 10:28:44 AM »
Hey, Pork Pie.  I notice that the speed shown on the picture is 1014.656 km/hr -- and the speed on the side of the podium shows 1044.656 km/hr.  Which is it -- and do the proprietors know that there's a discrepancy?
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Offline PorkPie

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Re: Blue Flame in Sinsheim
« Reply #3 on: November 16, 2013, 11:50:35 AM »
Hey, Pork Pie.  I notice that the speed shown on the picture is 1014.656 km/hr -- and the speed on the side of the podium shows 1044.656 km/hr.  Which is it -- and do the proprietors know that there's a discrepancy?

Jon, you saw right....

they had for a long time the wrong speed on the podium....the mile record which stand from 1970 to 1983.....this is also the speed which is painted on the car...
but the fastest record was the kilo speed...and it needs Andy Green and the Thrust SSC in September 1997 to beat this one.....

I told this the museum and they got also this picture to get the right speed on...but by an error from the graphic guy it ends up with the 1044 mph.....they will correct this the next week, also the paperwork which is shown....and the right year when the kilo record was broken...means 1997.....at first I thought I use photoshop to correct this error....but at last I let them so...just for the history of this picture.....with this speed Richard Noble would had never set a record in 1983.... :-D...and without a Thrust II record they maybe wouldn't be a Thrust SSC to break the sound barrier....let the Blue Flame dream a little bit....and by the way...this speed could be the peak speed which Gary run in 1970....

Also, the speed on the picture I brought today to the museum is the one which is written on the FIA list......the official time sheet from 1970 shows a little bit slower speed....no idea where the different is coming from....
Pork Pie

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Offline kiwi belly tank

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Re: Blue Flame in Sinsheim
« Reply #4 on: November 16, 2013, 01:56:29 PM »
Porkpie the LSR Historian strikes again. :-)
  Sid.

Offline Stan Back

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Re: Blue Flame in Sinsheim
« Reply #5 on: November 16, 2013, 05:45:14 PM »
Ain't that great!  We need someone to keep the truth from all the alleged PR and suppositions out there.  I had a couple projects dumped on me where I would have gladly used his expertise.  But I was told not to screw with the "expert".
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Offline Geo

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Re: Blue Flame in Sinsheim
« Reply #6 on: November 16, 2013, 07:02:35 PM »
Always screw with them Stan.  :-D

Glad Porkpie shares the knowledge!

Geo

Offline TrickyDicky

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Re: Blue Flame in Sinsheim
« Reply #7 on: November 17, 2013, 04:47:35 PM »


Also, the speed on the picture I brought today to the museum is the one which is written on the FIA list......the official time sheet from 1970 shows a little bit slower speed....no idea where the different is coming from....

I might be able to help with that.

The USAC/FIA timesheet for the flying km shows runs at 3.554 seconds and 3.543 seconds - average 3.5485 seconds or 630.388 mph (1014.513 km/h).

For the official record, it looks as though the FIA has truncated the time to 3.548 seconds or 630.478 mph / 1014.656 km/h.

Offline PorkPie

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Re: Blue Flame in Sinsheim
« Reply #8 on: November 18, 2013, 05:53:09 AM »


Also, the speed on the picture I brought today to the museum is the one which is written on the FIA list......the official time sheet from 1970 shows a little bit slower speed....no idea where the different is coming from....

I might be able to help with that.

The USAC/FIA timesheet for the flying km shows runs at 3.554 seconds and 3.543 seconds - average 3.5485 seconds or 630.388 mph (1014.513 km/h).

For the official record, it looks as though the FIA has truncated the time to 3.548 seconds or 630.478 mph / 1014.656 km/h.


This was also my solution I figured out a while ago......but it makes no sense.....as well known....Richard beat the mile but not the kilo record....for the kilo it was very close....

I ask me, what the FIA likes to explain, if Richard had to be so close that the different from ...,388 mph....correct measured speed and the "modified" Speed from the FIA with the...,478 mph had to be important that Richard had also beaten the kilo record.....just shy over the 1 percent rule.....did the FIA had than used the 4 digital behind the dot from the time :roll: :roll: :roll:
Pork Pie

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Offline TrickyDicky

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Re: Blue Flame in Sinsheim
« Reply #9 on: November 18, 2013, 08:17:58 AM »


Also, the speed on the picture I brought today to the museum is the one which is written on the FIA list......the official time sheet from 1970 shows a little bit slower speed....no idea where the different is coming from....

I might be able to help with that.

The USAC/FIA timesheet for the flying km shows runs at 3.554 seconds and 3.543 seconds - average 3.5485 seconds or 630.388 mph (1014.513 km/h).

For the official record, it looks as though the FIA has truncated the time to 3.548 seconds or 630.478 mph / 1014.656 km/h.


This was also my solution I figured out a while ago......but it makes no sense.....as well known....Richard beat the mile but not the kilo record....for the kilo it was very close....


Richard Noble did set a kilo speed (634.051 mph) that was faster than The Blue Flame's record - but less than 1% faster.  I understand that historically there was concern this meant it was not an official record.

Today's (FIA) view appears to be that Richard did set a record in the jet class (beating Craig Breedlove's 600.841 mph), whereas The Blue Flame was in the rocket class.  So the bit that doesn't make sense to me is why the absolute record was not regarded as Thrust II's kilo speed, given that the 1% rule only applied when deciding whether a class record had been set.

This revisionist view of history also means The Blue Flame is still the record holder in the rocket class.  And where it leaves Bloodhound SSC (with jet and rocket power) remains to be seen.

Offline PorkPie

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Re: Blue Flame in Sinsheim
« Reply #10 on: November 18, 2013, 12:34:45 PM »
This is the today way as the FIA list "works"....in 1983 was no split into rocket and jet power.....question, will be there a third category, when the Bloodhound is setting a record - hybrid...rocket and jet.....

in 1965 the FIA start to show in the list the different between wheel driven and thrust power....the thrust was, what we called the outright or absolute World Land Speed Record....the wheel driven was from now on international records....this is not anymore..in the last years they changed some rules...so the wheel driven are now World Records, too...and also the 1 percent rule is history...

When Richard run the Thrust II at Black Rock....the one percent rule still counts and there was only one category for thrust power....no split into rocket and jet.....
later they split the list...Blue Flame became his record back and Thrust II got the kilo record....

Due to this that there was for a longer period a big mess in the FIA record list for the flying mile and kilo it is not sure when this split was activated...so I have no idea, when exactly it happens...maybe Dave Petrali or David Tremayne can answer this.




Also, the speed on the picture I brought today to the museum is the one which is written on the FIA list......the official time sheet from 1970 shows a little bit slower speed....no idea where the different is coming from....

I might be able to help with that.

The USAC/FIA timesheet for the flying km shows runs at 3.554 seconds and 3.543 seconds - average 3.5485 seconds or 630.388 mph (1014.513 km/h).

For the official record, it looks as though the FIA has truncated the time to 3.548 seconds or 630.478 mph / 1014.656 km/h.


This was also my solution I figured out a while ago......but it makes no sense.....as well known....Richard beat the mile but not the kilo record....for the kilo it was very close....


Richard Noble did set a kilo speed (634.051 mph) that was faster than The Blue Flame's record - but less than 1% faster.  I understand that historically there was concern this meant it was not an official record.

Today's (FIA) view appears to be that Richard did set a record in the jet class (beating Craig Breedlove's 600.841 mph), whereas The Blue Flame was in the rocket class.  So the bit that doesn't make sense to me is why the absolute record was not regarded as Thrust II's kilo speed, given that the 1% rule only applied when deciding whether a class record had been set.

This revisionist view of history also means The Blue Flame is still the record holder in the rocket class.  And where it leaves Bloodhound SSC (with jet and rocket power) remains to be seen.

Pork Pie

Photoartist & Historian & 200 MPH Club Member (I/GL 202.8 mph in the orig. Bockscar #1000)

Offline MAYOMAN

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Re: Blue Flame in Sinsheim
« Reply #11 on: November 20, 2013, 07:43:41 PM »
The attached PDF (I hope it works) contains the only official timing documents I have seen, received from Chief Timer Joe Petrali at the Bonneville Salt Flats. The actual timer tape is attached. Those recorded times are the only times certified for the mile and kilometer distances on October 23, 1970.

There is no way to calculate any other value for the direct speeds shown below. The distances are a constant (mile and kilometer); the time constant (3600 seconds/hour) is a constant.

Direct speed calculations using the USAC recorded elapsed time averages for the two way runs on October 23, 1970:

3600 (time constant) = 3600 seconds/hour

Mile distance:     (5.739 + 5.829)/2 = 5.784 seconds average
                              3600/5.784 seconds = 622.407 mph

Kilometer distance:          (3.554 + 3.543)/2 = 3.5485 seconds average
                                             3600/3.5485 seconds = 1014.513 km/h

Converted speed calculations from the direct speed calculations, using 6 significant figures:

Mile distance: 622.407 mph X 1.60934 = 1001.667 km/h

Kilometer distance: 1014.513 km/h X 0.621371 = 630.389 mph
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Offline racefanwfo

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Re: Blue Flame in Sinsheim
« Reply #12 on: November 20, 2013, 10:51:41 PM »
The way i see it from a fan standpoint be it rocket,jet or hybrid it is still a thrust powered racecar end of story.
The speed that you wish to achieve is only limited by the depth of your wallet.

Offline TrickyDicky

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Re: Blue Flame in Sinsheim
« Reply #13 on: November 21, 2013, 08:23:37 AM »
...

Direct speed calculations using the USAC recorded elapsed time averages for the two way runs on October 23, 1970:

3600 (time constant) = 3600 seconds/hour

Mile distance:     (5.739 + 5.829)/2 = 5.784 seconds average
                              3600/5.784 seconds = 622.407 mph

Kilometer distance:          (3.554 + 3.543)/2 = 3.5485 seconds average
                                             3600/3.5485 seconds = 1014.513 km/h

Converted speed calculations from the direct speed calculations, using 6 significant figures:

Mile distance: 622.407 mph X 1.60934 = 1001.667 km/h

Kilometer distance: 1014.513 km/h X 0.621371 = 630.389 mph


Mayoman,

You may be forgetting that the FIA don't calculate like most of us.  :-D

Here is my educated guess at how they arrive at the official records.

Mile distance:     (5.739 + 5.829)/2 = 5.784 seconds average
                              3600/5.784 seconds = 622.407 mph (622.4066 rounded up to 622.407 to 3 decimal places - so far, so good)

Kilometer distance:          (3.554 + 3.543)/2 = 3.5485 seconds average (rounded down to 3.548 to 3dp)
                                             3600/3.548 seconds = 1014.6561 km/h (rounded down to 1014.656 to 3dp)

Converted speed calculations from the direct speed calculations, using 6 significant figures:

Mile distance: 622.407 mph X 1.609344 = 1001.6669 km/h (rounded up to 1001.667 to 3dp)

Kilometer distance: 1014.656 km/h X 0.621371192 = 630.478 mph

From my experience, understanding how the published speeds have been derived can be very difficult.  Not helped by the algorithm apparently changing over the years.

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Re: Blue Flame in Sinsheim
« Reply #14 on: November 21, 2013, 10:58:52 AM »
Odd isn't how something so seemingly simple to explain (going as fast as you can) gets complicated when you try to measure the results, compare them and share them. Whenever I do presentations about record breaking to those with only general knowledge of the subject somebody usually asks about time keeping. To put the explanation in context I've found it's best to start by covering a few other areas. If not, they get really confused. It will go something like this.

You build a vehicle to a set of technical regulations and vehicle class definitions (2 wheel, 4 wheel, wheel driven, thrust driven, engine size etc etc) and run against your class record. For FIM and FIA records it's two runs over the same kilo or mile (or both since both distances are accepted for setting a record) in opposite directions within a defined time period. If you exceed the record in your class then you are the land speed record holder for that class. The time taken to cover the distance is recorded and used to calculate your average speed. The average of both runs in both directions is used to calculate the overall speed. You have to use approved time keeping devices operated by an approved organisation on behalf of the FIM or FIA. The results are only official once they have been submitted to them, checked by them and finally ratified by them. The holder of the outright land speed record is the person who holds the fastest record for any class. So if you could figure out how build a 250cc bike that breaks that class record and is also faster that 763.035mph then you will have lifted Andy Green's crown from him. Which is why Craig Breedlove as the FIM record holder in the early 60s was also the holder of the outright land speed record and not Donald Campbell who was the holder of the slower FIA record. And yup I expect to get my head shot off for that one  :-(

You guys know all this anyway so I'm not trying to be smart, just showing how many bases you have to cover when somebody asks a simple "what is the land speed record" question. And that's without going into the reasons for Bonneville 2 runs in the same direction on successive days records. Add in peak speed and/or exit speed claims and you can see their eyes glaze over. So to get back to the point of this thread. Dick Keller (aka Mayoman) once told me that even though they were well aware that the record could be set over the mile or kilo, they were so focussed on Craig's mile record and so close to the wire before the weather broke, that all the publicity went out with the mile speed. It was only later they realised that the kilo record converted to mph was faster still but it was too late by then. Interestingly, at least  a couple of contemporary reports headlined the 630.388 number. Dick has had some rather natty T shirts made up with the faster speed so I made sure to send him a pic in front of Blue Flame when it was at Goodwood earlier this year. So well done to PP for setting the record straight at Sinsheim. We wouldn't expect anything less from him :wink: