Author Topic: Formula for aero drag.  (Read 16781 times)

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Offline robfrey

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Formula for aero drag.
« on: November 04, 2013, 07:57:44 PM »
Aircraft designers do drag build ups all the time by adding parts separately. If done correctly, you can expect accuracy within 3%.
Now it is time for you to leave this Cd stuff behind and start talking flat plate drag equivalence. This is a much better measurement
system for figuring out the total force needed to over come drag created when moving a body through the air at a particular speed. This is much more relative to what we are doing.
The correct way to measure aero drag is this formula.
Stagnation drag + Separation Drag + Wetted Area Drag = Total Aero Drag.
The hardest things for us car guys to grasp is that frontal area was not mentioned anywhere in the equation. This is why you could double the width of your tail-fin (if for some reason you wanted to)  and it will not double it's drag.
It sound like you are on the right track back not being afraid to drag those tail feathers through the air. Heck we have two giant tail fins on our car at a full 18% of cord.

Written by Interested Bystander

Rob,,

That the frontal area is not mentioned explicitly in your equation doesn’t mean frontal area has no bearing on the performance.  Your second sentence essentially says that drag is independent of the frontal area--which is obviously incorrect.
While a drag coefficient is really a fudge factor allowing useful results to be easily extracted from the characteristics of the shape and fluid properties, your expression is made up of quantities that are very hard to determine.
If you think your equation is so superior, please explain, for example, what “stagnation drag” or “separation drag” is and how to predict it.  Can you do so without involving frontal area?  (And can you do that for non-streamlined shapes?).  Your terms seem like alternate expressions for pressure drag and skin friction.  

Al’s wing:  Any aero appendage is going to add drag and therefore negatively impact performance unless its effect allows the vehicle to sufficiently overcome a stability and/or traction barrier.
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Offline robfrey

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Re: Formula for aero drag.
« Reply #1 on: November 04, 2013, 08:58:38 PM »
This thread is definitely more relative to Streamliner and Lakester aero drag.
I am still just a student of this science and do not claim to know everything

Ok where to start-
I stand by my statement about how to arrive at total aero drag.
You see, all aero drag fits into one of the three types if drag.
My reason for starting this conversation is to take the science that currently exist and apply it to what we are already doing.
This is just going to clarify and try to unify the the terminology a bit.
I do get a bit frustrated when everybody keeps talking as frontal area is the only thing that matters.
A torpedo shaped Streamliner that is. 40' long will have more drag than a Streamliner what is 25' long with the exact same frontal area.
This is because wetted area drag has increased as has separation drag. This is because air will start to separate and tumble along any surface that runs parallels with flow. The smother the surface, the less this happens but it still happens.
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Offline interested bystander

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Re: Formula for aero drag.
« Reply #2 on: November 04, 2013, 10:17:17 PM »
Rob  - That MUST have been "INTERESTED OBSERVER" -

He, like the Limeys say  "Knows the sums", where I, dropped engineering for art.

Not that yers truly isn't an aero enthusiast,

The AFD drag car we built with Arivett Bros. for Roger O'Dell that Ed Vickroy drove ran numbers at the world finals that National Dragster named "Run of the year" in '92  (over Bernstein's 300) had a tunnel, plus flip ups and tire wipers in front of the rear tires a la Indy cars of the era. And a single element rear wing

With Don Enriquez driving at a later racer, the tunnel broke loose and so did the rear tires while the tunnel slid to a stop glued to the track!
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Offline 38flattie

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Re: Formula for aero drag.
« Reply #3 on: November 04, 2013, 10:20:12 PM »
Rob, I'm not very knowledgeable about all of this, but I have been reading up on it a bit.

It seems to me you are basically quoting some basic principles of fluid dynamics? On something streamlined like a submarine, I thought you would call it the 'wetted area coefficient', but on a vehicle streamliner, I thought it was a volumetric drag coefficient?

I'm with Interested Observer, as I'm real interested in how stagnation drag and separation Drag  compare to skin friction and form drag. What about interference drag?

Can you please explain this concept more thoroughly? I've read up on all of this, but I'm still struggling to get my mind around all of it! :?
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Offline 38flattie

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Re: Formula for aero drag.
« Reply #4 on: November 04, 2013, 10:56:04 PM »
Rob, Nevermind!

I googled flat plate drag equivalence, and started reading up on it. When I found myself reaching for my calculater, I said to heckjwith it, I'll just visit Rob and he can explain it to me! LOL! :-D
With sufficient thrust, pigs fly just fine. However, this is not necessarily a good idea. It is hard to be sure where they are going to land, and it could be dangerous sitting under them as they fly overhead. -- RFC 1925

You can't make a race horse out of a pig. But if you work hard enough at it you can make a mighty fast pig. - Bob Akin

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Offline wobblywalrus

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Re: Formula for aero drag.
« Reply #5 on: November 04, 2013, 11:16:10 PM »
The frontal area and Cd method of figuring aero drag shows its shortcomings when one wants to decrease it.  It is hard to quantitativly analyse the effects of proposed changes. 

Offline robfrey

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Re: Formula for aero drag.
« Reply #6 on: November 04, 2013, 11:31:40 PM »
Stagnation drag happens when oncoming air
runs headlong into an object and can't decide which direction to go. Places for stagnation drag include: the grill, Headlights, leading, windshield the leading edge of a Naca 66-018 airfoil, front side if tires on a lakester., or  anything that would cause pressure to rise in front of a moving object., basically I guess it could be described as air "packing up" on the leading edge of an object moving though the air.

Separation drag happens when the flow of air becomes unattached to a object. This pulling away of the air creates a low pressure area. Examples would include, the back of a semitrailer, rear exposed chute tubes, the backside of the tires on a lakester or even the exposed backside of the tires on our Streamliner. These little patches of exposed tire are one of the biggest drag items on our car. We worked hard to minimize this. Also anytime you have an aft facing taper that is not transitioned smoothly enough from a straight section the flow will become detached creating drag. I think that it is safe to say that if a body section is creating a pressure change, either positive or negative, it is consuming energy, thus creating drag. I have yet to find an air compressor or vacuum pump that consumes no energy.

Wetted Area Drag is all the skin that is exposed to the moving airstream, The more surface area, the more drag. Simple analogy is a garden hose. The longer the hose the more energy is needed to maintain the same flow rate. This is when things got interesting for me. All wetted area does not have the same drag. The area that is in laminar flow has only about 1/3 of the drag as areas in that are not in laminar flow. Consequently, we fought hard for laminar flow.

I contend that all the drag that you all have been speaking about falls into one or more of these camps.

I now stand ready for cross examination. LOL.
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Offline robfrey

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Formula for aero drag.
« Reply #7 on: November 04, 2013, 11:35:30 PM »
Rob, Nevermind!

I googled flat plate drag equivalence, and started reading up on it. When I found myself reaching for my calculater, I said to heckjwith it, I'll just visit Rob and he can explain it to me! LOL! :-D

Better yet, visit Eric. Just wrap your head with duct tape first as you know.

When I was getting my education, my brain hurt almost every night from overload.
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Offline robfrey

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Re: Formula for aero drag.
« Reply #8 on: November 04, 2013, 11:37:55 PM »
Interested Bystander, I stand corrected. Sit that way too. It was interested observer.
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Offline SPARKY

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Re: Formula for aero drag.
« Reply #9 on: November 05, 2013, 07:13:51 AM »
Hmm it seems like we are just talking about the various pools of drag

ie types 

but those of us that are trying to go faster are trying to wrap our minds around what goes in to these collective pools and how to influence that pool..

Ms Liberty original tank nose was too blunt--ie a sphere  =stagnation drag--
therefore she now has a nose that looks like the wicked witch's   

My 30" dia. tank made my car have to be longer than if I had used my 33" dia tank---so I could get stuff in----whoops there goes more into my surface  vs my cross section===it just the formula---we still have to build SHAPES and assemble them that have the smallest total collective pool of DRAG    :-o  that still stays the same chose parts and shapes that collectively add up smaller vs BIGGER---brought to you by hopefully and newly through its first INSPECTION!!!!  :-D
Miss LIBERTY,  changing T.K.I.  to noise, dust, rust, BLUE HATS & hopefully not scrap!!

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Offline Richard 2

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Re: Formula for aero drag.
« Reply #10 on: November 05, 2013, 08:36:24 AM »
Rodfrey,
 So the thought that you could dimple the side of a car like a golf ball and make it go faster and or get better fuel mileage is false then.
Richard

P.S Not trying to be smart just something I know is out there.
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Offline bbarn

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Re: Formula for aero drag.
« Reply #11 on: November 05, 2013, 08:53:46 AM »
My $0.02 is this:

Using the frontal area calculation that the automotive world lives by is a good rough measure or attempt at comparing two shapes against each other. I'll use reductio ad absurdum to present examples.

Let us assume we are running three objects through the Fa formula and calculate the HP required to move each of these objects 100 MPH. The results of which are as follows:

Object 1:      .4 HP needed
Object 2:     78 HP needed
Object 3: 8,000 HP needed

What did we learn from this? Well, Object 1 is the most aerodynamic since it needed the least amount of HP. Object 3 is the least aerodynamic because it needed 8,000 HP to achieve 100 MPH. But what are these objects? What shapes do they represent?

This formula is good for a rough comparison of both known and unknown shapes to each other, but it doesn't tell you how to make them more aerodynamic. The reductio ad absurdum portion of this exercise is that object 1 is a sparrow, object 2 is a car and object 3 is a locomotive.

Now, if we look at the method that uses flat plate equivalent alone, it is not that far from what the Fa formula tells us. The difference is that the resulting numbers are compared not to each other, but to a 1 square foot flat plate placed perpendicular to the airflow. It really just changes the anchor point of reference from object-to-object to object-to-flat plate. Neither of these methods alone gives you the ability to identify and quantify explicit areas of drag.

The second part of the method Rob makes reference to is the build-up calculation. How I believe it works: If you take each discrete shape that is interfacing with the air and calculate the flat plate equivalent, THEN add all of those together, you have a total drag number for the object. The advantage to this is now that you have these details and an anchor of FPE, you can start to analyze for improvements. You can now compare the wheels to the windshield to the spoiler to determine which areas of the shape are yielding the most drag so that you can focus on those areas. If the fuselage is 12% of the total drag, but the parachute tubes are also 12% of the drag, you may want to look at the parachute tubes first.

Here's the other part of Rob's statement, what kind of drag is it? If the parachute is a cube bolted to the top of the car, you have both stagnation and separation drag. Placing a more aerodynamic shape on the leading portion of the cube will help, maybe not ideal, but you can reduce the stagnation drag. Maybe because of packaging or money, that is all that can be done, but at least you know where the drag is and what it costs. You can also measure the improvement from 12% to %12 - x when you reduce the stagnation drag.

Rob references tires and the stag/sep drag they cause. Not much you can do about the shape of a tire, it will be what it will be, but you can look at the shape of fairings and ways to present the tires to the air. These shapes can all be calculated and added together to give you a reference of what the air should be doing with the shapes you have chosen. It will also give you some reference within your own design to know where your problems are and where to focus your efforts.

This isn't a new concept or a new idea that is being proffered, it is how the aviation world has worked for years. It is just being highlighted that it can also work in areas outside of aircraft design.

Sparky - I like your concept of pools(buckets, classes...) of drag, knowing which kind and how much is in each bucket as well as what you can do to correct AND MEASURE THE RESULTS of your changes is how you make your shape better.
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Offline robfrey

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Re: Formula for aero drag.
« Reply #12 on: November 05, 2013, 09:31:06 AM »
Rodfrey,
 So the thought that you could dimple the side of a car like a golf ball and make it go faster and or get better fuel mileage is false then.
Richard

P.S Not trying to be smart just something I know is out there.

Richard,
In certain circumstance dimpling can have a positive effect on wetted area drag. You would not count all the extra area caused by dimpling because the air is not following each dimple in and out of the surface of the vehicle. Again, this fits into one if the three categories of drag.
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Offline Interested Observer

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Re: Formula for aero drag.
« Reply #13 on: November 05, 2013, 09:36:27 AM »
Rob et al,
You are correct that it is useful to characterize and be aware of the sources of and magnitudes of drag generating fluid behavior, but it is another thing to completely discount the usefulness of the Cd approach, which rolls all your component drags into one figure of merit, and then, in addition, to completely dismiss the importance of frontal area.  Those were my primary points.
My secondary point is that trying to predict those components is exceedingly difficult.  Not everyone is prepared to deal with pressure distribution, boundary layer, and Reynolds number calculations.  (Although CFD is well on the way to handling this, it, too, is not a trivial undertaking).  I notice you didn’t offer quantitative examples of separation drag calculations.
While I would certainly defer to Eric on these matters, I would be surprised if he didn’t generally agree with the above, and if you or he can cite preferred reference sources or materials that can further illuminate the utility of the drag component approach, I am sure all here would be interested.  Probably for Eric these drag questions call up an almost intuitive, reflexive response, having been immersed in it for decades.  For others, not so.

P.S. (having now read bbarn’s addition)
I would have no issue with the “flat plate” equivalence approach--but it is no different than adding up the drags of the various features and comparing them one to another to see their relative significance.  The difficulty is in determining each of their drags and how they arise out of the different modes of drag creation--shape, skin friction, etc.  We may be getting confused here about the drag of components and the components of drag.

Offline robfrey

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Re: Formula for aero drag.
« Reply #14 on: November 05, 2013, 09:58:16 AM »
IO,
I agree 100%. I'm just trying reiterate the idea that frontal area is important but it's not everything and shape does matter.
I by no means have all the answers and certainly do not want to come across as a know-it-all. I'm just trying to share what we have learned which I believe is the reason for this forum. :-) Cheers!
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