Author Topic: Course safety ?  (Read 32220 times)

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Offline wheelrdealer

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Re: Lame course safety ?
« Reply #30 on: October 14, 2013, 03:01:41 PM »
When I read this I had some thoughts but waited for the thread to expand to see where it was going.

My experience with Joe, Keith and the ECTA folks is they run a very safe event. Now that experience has been at Maxton not Wilmington.

I have two comments, first it is not what you said but how you said it that bothers me. To claim "lame course safety" and then throw a question mark in at the end to some how make it acceptable is "lame." The procedure is the rider/driver each have responsibility to report on any course issues from their vehicle or others. There is a procedure ECTA uses and that is to stop on course. So it seems to me there is an equal amount of "Lameness" in a competitor getting angry and barking something through a helmet on a fly by. When he was obligated to follow ECTA procedure and stop on course or at least adequately communicate a problem to ECTA officials. So you made your point that you are upset because there was something on the track but you also made it clear you failed to do your part by following procedure. Both issues are of equal importance the first for your safety and the second for the rider/driver that followed you.

Second and a very important second point, most of the ECTA staff are volunteers who do a fine job of managing a venue for all of us to race. You can count the LSR venues on one hand. There are not many people like Joe and Keith out there willing to take on the work and liability of running a land speed event. I am sure they welcome constructive criticism and suggestions to improve. But nobody likes to be attacked with worlds like "Lame" or innuendo's of carelessness. Let's be thankful for all of the people at ECTA, SCTA and others that work so hard to give us places to feed our need for speed. Let's work on ways to improve while always remembering that Joe and Keith, their wives and volunteers don't have to put on Land Speed Events.

My 2 cents.

BR

 
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Offline Eddish

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Re: Lame course safety ?
« Reply #31 on: October 14, 2013, 06:22:18 PM »
A small story apropos this thread. My first year at Bonneville in 1979, not knowing much and having already blown up a motor, I had a driveshaft come out of my car (broke in the middle) coming off a qualifying run (did qualify). It took out the back of the motor, block plate, transmission, shaft of course, differential, the driveshaft tunnel with seat belt mounts etc but fortunately not my Acura that subsequently got seriously reamed for not telling the course workers that I had dropped parts on or near the track. (Having qualified we had to fix everything and be in line next morning for record runs. Won't bore with long story about what that took to accomplish but we did, motor wouldn't start as distributor had been bumped while in back of truck going to SLC for welding and parts, but that fixed and later requalified and set new record). Point is, I got reamed for not reporting dropped parts.

Few years later, was sent on the long course. Somewhere in the run I came upon something in the track that I close to ran over. On reporting to the course worker that there was something in the track, was told.:" Oh, it was just a drag chute, no biggie you can dodge around it." Well, in a streamliner at 250+, I dang sure couldn't identify it nor "dodge" around it.

I understand what Mr Eddish is talking about. I wasn't so happy about being sent on a course that was not clear. But also had been a guilty party previously. We all need to be vigilant and do our best to ensure the safety of all.

I hear that !

Offline relaxedphit

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Re: Lame course safety ?
« Reply #32 on: October 14, 2013, 07:29:10 PM »
My nose IS long but I can't see 3/4 of a mile with a binocular (the old heat wave thing)..If you could have made short shutdown and spoken with the shutdown crew, the track would have been made safe for the next rider/driver. Is cooling your engine more important than avoiding the dangerous situation you discovered? The track is not released until a vehicle is safely past shutdown. If you had stopped in long shutdown, the track would have been held as well. Sir, you chose to leave an unsafe track open, not the folks getting you out there. To suggest that Tech may have had some culpability in this situation - no can know what work may have been done on a vehicle after inspection.

Offline Glen

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Re: Lame course safety ?
« Reply #33 on: October 14, 2013, 07:37:51 PM »
SCTA has a patrol steward every 1/10 mile on both sides of the dry lake course. I understand as we have 11 clubs that get the assignment each month. I also understand that ECTA has a heck of a lot less volunteers and no clubs to match this. However there has to be away to add a few people with a radio to let the starter and staff there is debris on the course. Think about Bonneville with 4 courses and 8 miles of length. It's still up the driver and riders to check the vehicles and notify a course worker asap.
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Offline salt27

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Re: Lame course safety ?
« Reply #34 on: October 14, 2013, 11:43:06 PM »
add the $.02 if eddish would have stopped and advised, most likely he would have been put back at the head of the line for a do over on the pass also.

Thank you, I was wondering about that it being a record run and all.

 Don

Offline Eddish

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Re: Lame course safety ?
« Reply #35 on: October 15, 2013, 06:42:51 AM »
When I read this I had some thoughts but waited for the thread to expand to see where it was going.

My experience with Joe, Keith and the ECTA folks is they run a very safe event. Now that experience has been at Maxton not Wilmington.

I have two comments, first it is not what you said but how you said it that bothers me. To claim "lame course safety" and then throw a question mark in at the end to some how make it acceptable is "lame." The procedure is the rider/driver each have responsibility to report on any course issues from their vehicle or others. There is a procedure ECTA uses and that is to stop on course. So it seems to me there is an equal amount of "Lameness" in a competitor getting angry and barking something through a helmet on a fly by. When he was obligated to follow ECTA procedure and stop on course or at least adequately communicate a problem to ECTA officials. So you made your point that you are upset because there was something on the track but you also made it clear you failed to do your part by following procedure. Both issues are of equal importance the first for your safety and the second for the rider/driver that followed you.

Second and a very important second point, most of the ECTA staff are volunteers who do a fine job of managing a venue for all of us to race. You can count the LSR venues on one hand. There are not many people like Joe and Keith out there willing to take on the work and liability of running a land speed event. I am sure they welcome constructive criticism and suggestions to improve. But nobody likes to be attacked with worlds like "Lame" or innuendo's of carelessness. Let's be thankful for all of the people at ECTA, SCTA and others that work so hard to give us places to feed our need for speed. Let's work on ways to improve while always remembering that Joe and Keith, their wives and volunteers don't have to put on Land Speed Events.

My 2 cents.

BR

 

Okay .........

Comment one;  Go back and read.  "Shut down" is part of the course.  Stopping, sideways to the path of travel - in the middle of the shut down/course sends a message in itself.  It makes no matter how I communicated to the course worker - only that he got the message and the course was closed/swept and the fender recovered !

Comment B;  You're correct, there aren't many LSR events out there to choose from but you seem to suggest that competitors accept what is offered and turn a blind eye to safety issues because of that?

Don't be so sure that "constructive criticism and suggestions to improve" are welcome ......... I reported Keith's attitude/response when I brought this issue to his attention immediately after it occurred and it was not warm and fuzzy ...... he was not even interested in having the conversation. That sort of attitude, in that circumstance, led to the thread that you're (selectively) reading.  Anybody can make a mistake but it's important (in light of the down-side associated with one like this) that it be used as a tool to improve, and there was no indication that was the case.

Offline Joe Timney

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Re: Lame course safety ?
« Reply #36 on: October 15, 2013, 06:52:55 AM »
Eddish,
I do NOT know who you are as you have chosen to use a stage name. You have tried your case on this forum and have heard from a lot of veteran racers who disagree with your method of handling the issue. If you really care about safety, why don't you give ME a call at my shop,  302.378.3013est between 9 am and 5 pm.
Joe Timney
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Offline Eddish

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Re: Lame course safety ?
« Reply #37 on: October 15, 2013, 07:01:46 AM »
add the $.02 if eddish would have stopped and advised, most likely he would have been put back at the head of the line for a do over on the pass also.

Could be Mike but the thread is about course safety or perhaps more accurately the deficiency in course safety.  

In any event I was not of a mind to go back out after that experience ....... you do understand significantly PO'd ..... si?  The importance of that run only got mention here (as a small and insignificant component of the occurrence) in order to set forth the evolution of the event.  Hardly seems worth having done so now in light of the apparent lack of comprehension.

I've been disappointed before and likely will be again but it hardly warrants starting a thread over that sort of thing, particularly if it was my of my causing ....... but neither is the case here.

Offline Eddish

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Re: Lame course safety ?
« Reply #38 on: October 15, 2013, 07:19:46 AM »
SCTA has a patrol steward every 1/10 mile on both sides of the dry lake course. I understand as we have 11 clubs that get the assignment each month. I also understand that ECTA has a heck of a lot less volunteers and no clubs to match this. However there has to be away to add a few people with a radio to let the starter and staff there is debris on the course. Think about Bonneville with 4 courses and 8 miles of length. It's still up the driver and riders to check the vehicles and notify a course worker asap.

Valid point Glen and I can understand the need at long course events.  I agree that ECTA cannot rise to that level and actually don't think it's necessary.  All in all I feel that ECTA has a pretty decent arrangement for monitoring the course (particularly at Wilmington).  After all, missing the fender lying out there aside, the process worked well enough.  The long turn-out course worker "got" the message, the course was shut down and eventually cleared prior to sending the next vehicle ........ not bad. 

This fiasco, however, speaks to a deficiency (in spotting the fender) and equally important (at least in my eyes) a deficiency in how it was handled. 

All said and done I came away with the impression that I would rolling the dice (regarding a "safe" course) whenever I made a pass and there was no indication of real concern about improving the situation.

Good - bad, fair or not that's how I felt about the situation as things evolved ..... and I think that I shared the facts here accurately.

Offline redhotracing

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Re: Lame course safety ?
« Reply #39 on: October 15, 2013, 07:51:14 AM »
Given the demeanor in which you've taken here,
I'm guessing that Keith got the same attitude at
the track from you... No wonder why/if he brushed
your comments off. The board takes safety, course
and driver, as priority number 1. We racers do, too.

I'm positive had you stopped or slowed down, then
notified someone in a calm demeanor, you would
have been sent to the front again for another run
post-course sweep. Attitude has a lot to do with
results, Eddish... And yours begs for nothing good.
Luke- Winston Salem, NC
Loring 2 Club- 201.252 (2010)
Ohio 2 Club- 203.712 (2013)

Offline bak189

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Re: Lame course safety ?
« Reply #40 on: October 15, 2013, 10:24:45 AM »
Good Lord people...........the guy has a valid point about track safety with a fender out there in the middle that nobody saw and cleared off the race` course...............and all you people are doing is ragging on him and making it  all his fault................Get real and get off his back...............
Question authority.....always

Offline rouse

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Re: Lame course safety ?
« Reply #41 on: October 15, 2013, 11:07:25 AM »
If you are racing long enough you're going to see something that ain't safe in some manner or another.

Example, you saw a fender on the course. I ran past a cow at over 200  standing in the middle of other lane at the finish line ( late 70's ). A friend of mine on a bike went down on the salt and had another bike run right past him on the course (early 90's). I could sit here and make  list as long as my arm but, point is it's racing and "things" happen.

How these things are handled makes the big difference. Safety is not just up to somebody else, racing ain't some cradle to grave government program, everyone involved has to take responsibility for keeping things safe.

When people start thinking safety is someone else's problem, then the whole concept of safety fails. So if you see something that is not safe, it is up to you to take whatever action necessary to fix the problem, and if you don't, the safety issue is your fault, not someone else.

Rouse
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Offline Stan Back

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Re: Lame course safety ?
« Reply #42 on: October 15, 2013, 11:53:01 AM »
Ed -- PM sent.
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Offline Joe Timney

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Re: Lame course safety ?
« Reply #43 on: October 15, 2013, 12:16:36 PM »
Gentlemen, a fender on the course IS a safety issue! The location and position from the tower did not make it visual to me. The track crown hid some of the fender. The visibility over the crown is why we purchased the tall timing trailer. I didn't see the fender until Keith picked it up. I DID NOT see it come off the bike. I watch every run from the time the vehicle comes over the top of the hill until it clears shut down and have for 16 years...every meet! Anyone who relieves me in the tower is instructed to do the same thing.


As you can see, when I first saw this post, I asked EDISH to give me a call so I could interview him on the series of events that happened so we can plan what could be done to eliminate this in the future.

In my humble opinion, RANTING is not a good form of communicating.
Joe Timney
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Offline rouse

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Re: Lame course safety ?
« Reply #44 on: October 15, 2013, 03:08:44 PM »
Gentlemen, a fender on the course IS a safety issue! The location and position from the tower did not make it visual to me. The track crown hid some of the fender. The visibility over the crown is why we purchased the tall timing trailer. I didn't see the fender until Keith picked it up. I DID NOT see it come off the bike. I watch every run from the time the vehicle comes over the top of the hill until it clears shut down and have for 16 years...every meet! Anyone who relieves me in the tower is instructed to do the same thing.


As you can see, when I first saw this post, I asked EDISH to give me a call so I could interview him on the series of events that happened so we can plan what could be done to eliminate this in the future.

In my humble opinion, RANTING is not a good form of communicating.

I agree with Joe here. The fact that EDISH didn't do the right thing when he noticed  safety issue, he became the safety issue. Racers like that will end up getting someone else hurt because they think that safety is always somebody else's responsibility, not theirs. 

There was clearly two irresponsible people involved here. The one that lost the fender, and EDISH for not properly notifying the coarse works in a timely manner.

I'd personally like to know if I was running behind either one of them, it seems they only lookout for themselves, and to hell with everyone running behind them.

Rouse
Johnnie Rouse
Bike 4680 P-PP2000 SCTA record 153.325    A-PF3000 182.920
                              Texas Mile 152.518 PP class  186 A-PF Class
If you love your freedom thank a vet.