Author Topic: Springfield Flyer.  (Read 1452630 times)

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Offline tauruck

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Re: Springfield Flyer.
« Reply #1755 on: June 30, 2015, 12:41:09 AM »
Thanks for all the input from every one. :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:

Based where I am having limited resources I can't afford
having problems with the foam. Even if I decided to use it
getting it into or out of the tank would be difficult with baffle
plates in place.
No foam and no baffle plates on this one.
2 x -10 feed bungs.
1 x -10 return.
1 x -8 vent.

I'll make sure all the filters and pumps are matched to avoid starvation etc.

Mark and Mike, a special thanks to you both for putting in
so much effort to help.

I'll have more pics later today.

Offline Buickguy3

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Re: Springfield Flyer.
« Reply #1756 on: June 30, 2015, 11:11:47 AM »
  Don't forget the rollover vent valve.
    Doug  :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
I keep going faster and faster and I don't know why. All I have to do is live and die.
                   [America]

Offline tauruck

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Re: Springfield Flyer.
« Reply #1757 on: June 30, 2015, 08:58:57 PM »
Will do Doug. :cheers:

I need some advice on the AN fittings that I need to weld to the gas tank.
I was going to use -10 AN but it looks like i'll be using the Bosch fuel pump
listed below. It has metric fittings and the site I visited says to use -8AN (adapter obviously).
Inlet M18 x 1,5
Outlet M12 x 1,5
My concern is the inlet size. What say you guys?.

https://www.treadstoneperformance.com/product.phtml?p=1826&cat_key=625&prodname=Bosch+Inline+Fuel+Pump+044+0580254044+++


Bosch Part Number: 0 580 254 044


I could use FCM2245 from Aeroquip.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2015, 11:34:55 PM by tauruck »

Offline wobblywalrus

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Re: Springfield Flyer.
« Reply #1758 on: July 01, 2015, 12:09:38 AM »
Mike, the rollover valves at www.fuelsafe.com have given me good service.  They are expensive but worth it.  They stock all sorts of other fittings, too.

Offline Dynoroom

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Re: Springfield Flyer.
« Reply #1759 on: July 01, 2015, 01:11:36 AM »
Mike, The larger feed lines (-10) to the pump inlet is a good thing so work on doing that. They make adapter fittings that go from metric to SAE. The Bosch 044 pumps (two of them) should handle the fueling demands of a 1200-1400 HP (flywheel) engine on E85 but a few things to keep in mind. This fuel can damage parts in the fuel system in as little as 1 to 2 weeks so make sure you pickle the engine after use. This means run gasoline through complete system before storing the car. You can even use pump gas IF it has no alcohol in it. Another issue is the electric pumps themselves. I run mechanical "cam or belt driven" pumps. As the engine power goes up the demand on the electrical system goes WAY up. This effects the pumps and they slow down. Not good on a 5 mile pass, so make sure you have a good charging system.
There is a lot more to this than what we can "chat" about here so spend some time doing research online about fuel requirements vs power, etc. There are quite a few pit falls in EFI so be careful what components & wiring you use. Most good harnesses cost as much or more than the electronic control unit.

My fuel tank is in the front of the car with the pump near the firewall. Instead of running braided line for 8 feet I use hard line part of the way. See picture.   
Michael LeFevers
Kugel and LeFevers Pontiac Firebird

Without Data You're Just Another Guy With An Opinion!

Racing is just a series of "Problem Solving" events that allow you to spend money & make noise...

Offline fordboy628

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Re: Springfield Flyer.
« Reply #1760 on: July 01, 2015, 06:39:07 AM »
Mike,

My experience is that electric pumps only are marginal for long periods of WOT, UNLESS, they are very carefully selected, AND, have enough voltage/current available at all times.    I would not like to "burn down" an engine or two getting this worked out.

Cosworth injected engines used an electric fuel pump for start-up, and had an engine driven mechanical pump for higher speeds.    The pump sections themselves were identical, they differed only in the driving method.    The difference is that the electric pump runs at a fixed (based on voltage/current available) speed, so the output is OK until the fuel demand exceeds the pumps output.   The mechanical pump is driven with a fixed ratio off the engine and the speed (and output, up to a point) increases with engine rpm.    The pumps were plumbed in parallel using check valves and the electric pump was turned off after start-up.   WHY?   If the mechanical pump failed or the drive belt broke, with the electric pump off, the engine would "shut off" from lack of fuel.    If the electric pump was on, the fuel supply was insufficient for WOT, and the result was usually a "melted" engine . . . .

Just my experience . . . . . .
 :cheers:
Fordboy
Science, NOT Magic . . . .

I used to be a people person.  But people changed that relationship.

"There is nothing permanent except change."    Heraclitus

"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."     Albert Einstein

Offline Buickguy3

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Re: Springfield Flyer.
« Reply #1761 on: July 01, 2015, 08:49:52 AM »
  Mike,
   We have always had good luck with the Aeromotive pumps. Never run one without fuel as that's their only source of cooling, and never starve the suction side of the pump. Even if it means that you only strain out the big pieces on the suction side and catch it on the pressure side with a high pressure filter. This is not a place to "cheap out". We feed the pump with -12 line and adapt to -10 at the pump. and -10 to the fuel rail. Just my opinion for what it's worth.
   Doug  :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:

http://www.jegs.com/i/Aeromotive/027/11101/10002/-1?parentProductId=750073
I keep going faster and faster and I don't know why. All I have to do is live and die.
                   [America]

Offline SPARKY

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Re: Springfield Flyer.
« Reply #1762 on: July 01, 2015, 09:34:01 AM »
I second that -- I also put the fuel pressure regulator at the end of the return line just before the fuel returns to the tank  you can not be to large on the vent line with no loops that can  trap fuel  like a P trap under a sink in the house
« Last Edit: July 02, 2015, 09:59:44 AM by SPARKY »
Miss LIBERTY,  changing T.K.I.  to noise, dust, rust, BLUE HATS & hopefully not scrap!!

"Security is mostly a superstition. It does not exist in nature, nor do the children of men as a whole experience it. Avoiding danger is no safer in the long run than outright exposure. Life is either a daring adventure or nothing."   Helen Keller

We are going to explore the racing N words NITROUS & NITRO!

Offline tauruck

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Re: Springfield Flyer.
« Reply #1763 on: July 02, 2015, 03:47:43 AM »
All the above info is invaluable and the processes involved very complicated and I'm
forever grateful for all the help from everyone. :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:

I'll be taking this one step at a time. I'm even getting input from Gary Satara in Australia.
He races the Green Jag XJ12 with the blown Cleveland. His advice mirrors all of the above
so know you guys are all in agreement on what the requirements are and all the pitfalls have been covered.

I'm going to weld in all the -10 fittings where required for now.
This will allow me to add the components still to come no matter the make.

This is truly the miracle build and on the funds available should never have gotten this far but for some reason
companies are turning up offering products just when they are needed most.

There are deals coming that will change the whole complexion.  :cheers:
More on that later.


Getting back to the gas tank. The lid is 5mm stainless steel.
I had to cut a 6" hole for the filler cap unit and drill 12 holes to mount it.
Due to the size of the plate I could only drill 5 holes on the drill press.
We had to do the others with a hand drill. I don't think I have one drill bit under 8mm
left that works. :evil: :evil: :evil:

It took all day yesterday. Redressed bits lasted but 6 seconds but eventually we got the job done.
The 6" hole I tackled with the plasma cutter and that went OK but cleaning up the rough edges
will take a day more. My new metal burrs that are top quality make little impression but the Makita mini
belt sander is doing better than expected while the compressor is building pressure.

What A PITA!!!!!!!. I've never experienced material like this. I think it work hardens just by looking at it.

You're going to ask what grade it is but I don't know. All I know is that it kicked my butt 40 ways from Sunday. :-D

Vent hole and return get done today no matter what.

Offline fordboy628

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Re: Springfield Flyer.
« Reply #1764 on: July 02, 2015, 07:56:52 AM »
Mike,

Although probably too late to help you now, some info on drill bits.    High speed steel drill bits (shiny steel) will work on high grade stainless steels, carbon steel drills (black oxide coated) are near useless.    High speed steel drill bits coated with titanium nitride will work better, but the best for stainless are cobalt high speed steels, as in $$$.   They do save you time and sanity . . . . . .      TiOx coated bits, when sharpened, lose the TiOx coating and are then just a high speed steel bit.

Yes, you can sharpen drill bits by hand, I know many machinists that do it as an art form.    But for the average guy, a sharpening rig like a "Drill Doctor" is the  best method for reclaiming bits 1/8" (3mm) dia to 3/4" (19mm) dia, since the average enthusiast has a hard time sharpening by hand.

 :cheers:
Fordboy
Science, NOT Magic . . . .

I used to be a people person.  But people changed that relationship.

"There is nothing permanent except change."    Heraclitus

"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."     Albert Einstein

Offline SPARKY

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Re: Springfield Flyer.
« Reply #1765 on: July 02, 2015, 10:12:50 AM »
Mike, When I was using a electric fuel pump I ran a 150 amp alternator on my eng. On when my eng was on the dyno the operator asked me about it--I asked why---he said  that my set up was one of only a very few times he had not seen an big electric pump drop the voltage on the efi controller which he was reading after a run   I was running 2 1000 cranking amp batteries with the HD 150 amp--may have been over kill but it would handle the big pump and my water transfer pump as well as the efi.
Miss LIBERTY,  changing T.K.I.  to noise, dust, rust, BLUE HATS & hopefully not scrap!!

"Security is mostly a superstition. It does not exist in nature, nor do the children of men as a whole experience it. Avoiding danger is no safer in the long run than outright exposure. Life is either a daring adventure or nothing."   Helen Keller

We are going to explore the racing N words NITROUS & NITRO!

Offline Peter Jack

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Re: Springfield Flyer.
« Reply #1766 on: July 02, 2015, 10:30:28 AM »
Mike, Google "cartridge rolls" and then talk to your abrasives supplier. Your cleanup job will suddenly become a lot easier. Be sure to get the necessary mandrels and be prepared to duck a few bits of sandpaper roll.  :-D :-D :-D

Pete

Offline wobblywalrus

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Re: Springfield Flyer.
« Reply #1767 on: July 02, 2015, 11:54:29 AM »
Mike, you can look at on-line catalogs like Mcmaster-Carr, Fastenal, etc to get an idea of the tooling for special metals.

The work hardening caused by tool action is at the surface of the part.  The trick is to use a high feed rate so the cutting edge is working below the hardened layer.  High feed rate and low rpm often works.

Hole saws are often what I use on sheet metal.  First, I lower the cutter down onto the part so it scratches a mark where it will cut.  Then, I drill one or more small holes in the marked circle.  The holes help the saw to get down and to dig away below the work hardened surface.

Sometimes when I drill a large hole I use the same method.  First I drill the pilot hole.  Then, I drill one or more small holes alongside the pilot hole.  The holes are to help the bit dig in and they will disappear then the big hole is drilled.

Stainless steels, monel, titanium, all can be problematic.  A guy working at home usually can cut them using conventional tools.  It takes some time to figure out the method.  Sales specialists at the tooling distributors are often a big help.



 

Offline manta22

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Re: Springfield Flyer.
« Reply #1768 on: July 02, 2015, 06:46:45 PM »
...Getting back to the gas tank. The lid is 5mm stainless steel.
I had to cut a 6" hole for the filler cap unit and drill 12 holes to mount it.
Due to the size of the plate I could only drill 5 holes on the drill press.
We had to do the others with a hand drill. I don't think I have one drill bit under 8mm
left that works. :evil: :evil: :evil:

It took all day yesterday. Redressed bits lasted but 6 seconds but eventually we got the job done.
The 6" hole I tackled with the plasma cutter and that went OK but cleaning up the rough edges
will take a day more. My new metal burrs that are top quality make little impression but the Makita mini
belt sander is doing better than expected while the compressor is building pressure.

What A PITA!!!!!!!. I've never experienced material like this. I think it work hardens just by looking at it.

You're going to ask what grade it is but I don't know. All I know is that it kicked my butt 40 ways from Sunday. :-D

Vent hole and return get done today no matter what.

I know exactly how you feel, Mike. My firewall is probably the same stuff-- 304 stainless. It was a bitch to cut so I finally had a friend cut the sheet to size with his plasma cutter; that made me a believer in plasma cutting! Finishing the cut edges was not going too well before I discovered the 3M Cubitron II abrasive discs- these use a grain-oriented ceramic abrasive and cut far better than aluminum oxide or zirconium oxide discs. They leave a rather fine finish with respect to their grain size and last longer than other abrasives.

I cut large holes using a small plasma cutter with a homemade circle protractor. Smaller holes are simply drilled with cobalt drills. Sometimes I enlarge those with a HF step drill. The key, as WW pointed out, it to use a slow speed, heavy pressure, and a good cutting oil. I thought this was a sheet of 6Al4V titanium at first but the sparks were not bright white and, upon reflection, its weight should have been a clue. Oh, well- it works.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ

Offline tauruck

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Re: Springfield Flyer.
« Reply #1769 on: July 03, 2015, 12:02:53 AM »
Thank you all. :cheers:

I've never had a problem like this. There was a stamping on the plate that read 2055. I didn't look closely thinking it was the date but after we finished cutting and drilling I saw Made in Sweden 2055 and some other code.

I cut the hole for the filler with my plasma cutter no problem based off marking using a Sharpie. I thought the burrs would clean up the rough edges pretty well. Wrong!!!!. I left too much meat to get rid of. :-P

The only good "shiny" drill bits I have are 3mm and should have used one to do pilot holes.
This SS definitely work hardens. We sharpened bit after bit after drilling the first five holes on the press.
I've been sharpening drills for years and eventually I was thinking I'd lost my touch. :-D :-D
The drill we tested flew through a piece of 10mm mild steel so then I knew It was the stainless plate
busting our nuts and drills.
My buddy Clive had more patience so he finished the drilling.
We got the job done eventually and now I have to weld the lid to the box.

A one hour job turned into a two day joke. :-D :-D :-D

All good here now and we'll fit the tank today to set it up for adding the mounting plates.

Photos later.

BTW, Bo your trick of drilling a small hole on the mark made by the hole saw will DEFINITELY be used.
That one's in the bank already. Thanks man. :cheers: