Author Topic: ATTENTION IN THE PITS Rule Change Deadline September 1  (Read 15851 times)

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Offline desotoman

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Re: ATTENTION IN THE PITS Rule Change Deadline September 1
« Reply #15 on: August 31, 2013, 10:08:20 PM »
Tomorrow is the last Day for submitting a rule change. Don't procrastinate if you are thinking about a change. It is now or next year.

Tom G.
I love the USA. How much longer will we be a free nation?

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Offline NathanStewart

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Re: ATTENTION IN THE PITS Rule Change Deadline September 1
« Reply #16 on: September 01, 2013, 04:07:46 PM »
I got 'em in.  Why do early what you can do on the due date?  :-D

…..but it’s a LOT better than those computer based, boost referenced ignitions running in vintage, that we can’t seem to get rid of! :wink:

It's very strange actually.  Everyone pretty much agrees to the fact that computers should not be allowed in vintage but then there are those that still want to be able to use their Electromotive XDI or MSD DIS ignitions which are definitely computers.  How can they say no computers in vintage but then use a computer?  It's the most bass-ackward logic defying mess I've ever heard.
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Offline 38flattie

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Re: ATTENTION IN THE PITS Rule Change Deadline September 1
« Reply #17 on: September 01, 2013, 04:51:45 PM »
Nathan,

I meant to add a rule change proposal on ignitions, but forgot about it. I sure hope someone else did!!??
With sufficient thrust, pigs fly just fine. However, this is not necessarily a good idea. It is hard to be sure where they are going to land, and it could be dangerous sitting under them as they fly overhead. -- RFC 1925

You can't make a race horse out of a pig. But if you work hard enough at it you can make a mighty fast pig. - Bob Akin

http://www.flatcadracing.org/
http://youtu.be/89rVb497_4c

Offline desotoman

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Re: ATTENTION IN THE PITS Rule Change Deadline September 1
« Reply #18 on: September 01, 2013, 05:16:57 PM »
Buddy,

It is not too late. You have until Midnight tonight.

Tom G.
I love the USA. How much longer will we be a free nation?

Asking questions is one's only way of getting answers.

The rational person lets verified facts form or modify his opinion.  The ideologue ignores verified facts which don't fit his preconceived opinions.

Offline 38flattie

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Re: ATTENTION IN THE PITS Rule Change Deadline September 1
« Reply #19 on: September 01, 2013, 05:38:43 PM »
Buddy,

It is not too late. You have until Midnight tonight.

Tom G.

Tom, Nathan, I'm on the road without a rulebook! If someone would be kind enough to send or post the info I need-rule number, verbiage, pgge number, I'll get it submitted. That rule HAS to be one of the most abused, and misinterpreted rules in the book!
With sufficient thrust, pigs fly just fine. However, this is not necessarily a good idea. It is hard to be sure where they are going to land, and it could be dangerous sitting under them as they fly overhead. -- RFC 1925

You can't make a race horse out of a pig. But if you work hard enough at it you can make a mighty fast pig. - Bob Akin

http://www.flatcadracing.org/
http://youtu.be/89rVb497_4c

Offline dw230

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Re: ATTENTION IN THE PITS Rule Change Deadline September 1
« Reply #20 on: September 01, 2013, 05:44:41 PM »
I don't understand. The rulebook clearly states "any" ignition, seems simple to me.

DW
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Alcohol - because no good story starts with a salad.

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Offline 38flattie

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Re: ATTENTION IN THE PITS Rule Change Deadline September 1
« Reply #21 on: September 01, 2013, 06:18:31 PM »
Dan, you're a funny guy! :cheers:


Guys, I need the rule and page, if someone could send it or post it, please!
With sufficient thrust, pigs fly just fine. However, this is not necessarily a good idea. It is hard to be sure where they are going to land, and it could be dangerous sitting under them as they fly overhead. -- RFC 1925

You can't make a race horse out of a pig. But if you work hard enough at it you can make a mighty fast pig. - Bob Akin

http://www.flatcadracing.org/
http://youtu.be/89rVb497_4c

Offline desotoman

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Re: ATTENTION IN THE PITS Rule Change Deadline September 1
« Reply #22 on: September 01, 2013, 06:40:18 PM »

Guys, I need the rule and page, if someone could send it or post it, please!


Buddy,

Try this.

Tom G.
I love the USA. How much longer will we be a free nation?

Asking questions is one's only way of getting answers.

The rational person lets verified facts form or modify his opinion.  The ideologue ignores verified facts which don't fit his preconceived opinions.

Offline salt27

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Re: ATTENTION IN THE PITS Rule Change Deadline September 1
« Reply #23 on: September 01, 2013, 06:56:28 PM »
And if you don't like that try this.  :wink:  Page 19,  2.A.1

For reasons of economy and historical authenticity, vintage engine modifications are restricted to older technology levels, so far as is practical. Accordingly, in classes XO, XF, XXF, XXO, V4, V4F, using vintage bodies:

1. Turbochargers are not permitted;

2. Computers are allowed for data collection purposes only;

3. Electronic fuel injection prohibited;

4. Any ignition system may be used.

Note: See exception under rules for Vintage Oval Track Category.

Don, the slow typer

Offline 38flattie

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Re: ATTENTION IN THE PITS Rule Change Deadline September 1
« Reply #24 on: September 01, 2013, 07:00:23 PM »
Tom, Don,- THANK YOU!

I've submitted a rule change proposal, so we'll see if anyone even cares about it enough to get it changed.



Rulebook Issue: (255 characters or less) *
Any ignition system may be used

Rulebook Section: *
2.A.1

Rulebook Page: *
19

Desired Outcome: (255 characters or less) *
Currently, some vintage car owners have decided computers and micro-processors are being used, due to the 'any ignition' statement

Reason for Change: (255 characters or less) *
To keep and maintain the integrity of the vintage class

Any Side Effects: (255 characters or less) *
Computer based and micro-processor based ignitions will be removed from the vintage class

Desired Rewording of Rule: (255 characters or less) *
Any ignition, not utilizing a computer or micro-processor, may be used.

Last Update
2013-09-01 15:58:13

Start Time
2013-09-01 15:06:52

Finish Time
2013-09-01 15:58:13
« Last Edit: September 01, 2013, 07:09:27 PM by 38flattie »
With sufficient thrust, pigs fly just fine. However, this is not necessarily a good idea. It is hard to be sure where they are going to land, and it could be dangerous sitting under them as they fly overhead. -- RFC 1925

You can't make a race horse out of a pig. But if you work hard enough at it you can make a mighty fast pig. - Bob Akin

http://www.flatcadracing.org/
http://youtu.be/89rVb497_4c

Offline dw230

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Re: ATTENTION IN THE PITS Rule Change Deadline September 1
« Reply #25 on: September 01, 2013, 10:07:47 PM »
Buddy,

Desired wording is pretty broad, open ended. If the details are not there the change request will be rejected. This is the reason a change was not made last year. In case you are wondering, I have no input at the meeting, I am just passing on 30 years of experience in attending this meeting.

DW
White Goose Bar - Where LSR is a lifestyle
Alcohol - because no good story starts with a salad.

Don't be Karen, be Beth

Offline 38flattie

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Re: ATTENTION IN THE PITS Rule Change Deadline September 1
« Reply #26 on: September 01, 2013, 10:25:33 PM »
Dan, thanks for the input!  Having never been to one of these meetings, it's hard to know what to write, or what to expect.

I did send a follow up to my initial submission, but I don't know if it will help. Desotoman originally word this description, and I 'borrowed' it.

here is the follow up I sent:

The form is very restrictive, as it is hard to get everything explained in 250 words.

Is it possible that this alternative wording could also be included for consideration?

Computers are allowed for data collection purposes only, No computer controlled devices (microprocessors) of any kind affecting and or controlling engine operation will be permitted.


My goal is simply to clarify the rule, and to see that the vintage 'spirit' is upheld.
With sufficient thrust, pigs fly just fine. However, this is not necessarily a good idea. It is hard to be sure where they are going to land, and it could be dangerous sitting under them as they fly overhead. -- RFC 1925

You can't make a race horse out of a pig. But if you work hard enough at it you can make a mighty fast pig. - Bob Akin

http://www.flatcadracing.org/
http://youtu.be/89rVb497_4c

Offline V4F STR 60

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Re: ATTENTION IN THE PITS Rule Change Deadline September 1
« Reply #27 on: September 03, 2013, 09:36:52 AM »
Tom, Don,- THANK YOU!

I've submitted a rule change proposal, so we'll see if anyone even cares about it enough to get it changed.



Rulebook Issue: (255 characters or less) *
Any ignition system may be used

Rulebook Section: *
2.A.1

Rulebook Page: *
19

Desired Outcome: (255 characters or less) *
Currently, some vintage car owners have decided computers and micro-processors are being used, due to the 'any ignition' statement

Reason for Change: (255 characters or less) *
To keep and maintain the integrity of the vintage class

Any Side Effects: (255 characters or less) *
Computer based and micro-processor based ignitions will be removed from the vintage class

Desired Rewording of Rule: (255 characters or less) *
Any ignition, not utilizing a computer or micro-processor, may be used.

Last Update
2013-09-01 15:58:13

Start Time
2013-09-01 15:06:52

Finish Time
2013-09-01 15:58:13


Oh joy!  I'm so stoked that another round of vintage ignition debate has begun.  I had absolutely nothing better to do than spend my off season discussing a moot point...  again.

First off, I'm glad the digitalphobes have fessed up and acknowledged that this is a rule CHANGE and not a rule CLARIFICATION.  This is an important point because changing the rule would require dozens of competitors to reengineer their entire cars over what is truly a non-issue.

The fact is simply this ~ the rules in these classes also require a CARBURETOR or MECHANICAL fuel injection.  EFI is not allowed!  What, for gods sake can a oxygen sensor adjust on a CARBURATED car during the course of a run?  Why the unfounded paranoia?

Even though it's a non-issue, there is a very simple solution to the concerns about possible black magic performed by ignition boxes.  Simply add the following to the exiting rule~

Any ignition may be used as long as it doesn't receive electronic feedback and/or change preset ignition parameters during the course of a run.

This is the rule change that I have proposed.

It's very simple, very easy, very painless COMPROMISE that addresses everyone's issue.  Compromise... you've heard of that right?

If not, here's the definition -

noun  an agreement or a settlement of a dispute that is reached by each side making concessions.
"an ability to listen to two sides in a dispute, and devise a compromise acceptable to both"

Now, of course, this doesn't address those who are concerned about the 'purity' or the 'spirit' of the vintage classes, but come on...  what is truly vintage about ANY of the cars breaking records in these classes?  Maybe we should go back to recapped tires, and milk crates for seats, and ban fire systems, data loggers, and helmets while we're at it.  Buddy, I've looked closely at your car, and you have to admit, it's no more 'vintage' than most of the other competitive cars currently running in vintage classes these days.

FACT ~ There is no difference WHAT SO EVER between pre-programming an ignition curve into an ignition box and using an old Sun machine to do the exact same thing on a distributor.

So please, acknowledge the real concern about the wording of existing rule, add a few words to address those fears, and let's all move on and simply go racing.

COMPROMISE... Try it, you'll like it!
 
:cheers: Pedro

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1928 Dodge Brothers Vintage Flathead Four Cylinder Roadster & Lakester

Landspeed Records

Bonneville

2009 V4F/STR 115.681
2009 V4F/GR 116.439
2009 V4F/FR 117.597
2010 V4F/BSTR 127.352
2012 V4F/BFMR 130.843
2013 V4F/BGMR 142.956
2013 V4F/BFMR 143.254
2013 V4F/BGR 138.395
2013 V4F/BFR 138.984

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Offline 38flattie

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Re: ATTENTION IN THE PITS Rule Change Deadline September 1
« Reply #28 on: September 03, 2013, 11:34:55 AM »
Oh joy! I'm so stoked that another round of vintage ignition debate has begun. I had absolutely nothing better to do than spend my off season discussing a moot point... again.

Haha! The best defense is a good offense, huh? Attack and act indignant!

First off, I'm glad the digitalphobes have fessed up and acknowledged that this is a rule CHANGE and not a rule CLARIFICATION. This is an important point because changing the rule would require dozens of competitors to reengineer their entire cars over what is truly a non-issue.

Well, Pedro, call it what you want. I didn't see the form or deadline for the Rule Clarification, so I went this route.

The fact is simply this ~ the rules in these classes also require a CARBURETOR or MECHANICAL fuel injection. EFI is not allowed! What, for gods sake can a oxygen sensor adjust on a CARBURATED car during the course of a run? Why the unfounded paranoia?

Hmmm, do I really need to answer this? Do you REALLY think sidetracks will throw people off that easily? The O2 can be used to control timing-that part has nothing to do with a CARB or MECHANICAL fuel injection. It could also be used for H2O injection, and probably numerous other functions, if one got creative.

Probably the biggest abuse out there is referencing timing to boost- but you already know that.


Even though it's a non-issue, there is a very simple solution to the concerns about possible black magic performed by ignition boxes. Simply add the following to the exiting rule~

Any ignition may be used as long as it doesn't receive electronic feedback and/or change preset ignition parameters during the course of a run.

This is the rule change that I have proposed.

It's very simple, very easy, very painless COMPROMISE that addresses everyone's issue. Compromise... you've heard of that right?

If not, here's the definition -

noun an agreement or a settlement of a dispute that is reached by each side making concessions.
"an ability to listen to two sides in a dispute, and devise a compromise acceptable to both"

Thank you for the definition. I'm sure none of us here would have ever considered such a thing! LOL!

Now, of course, this doesn't address those who are concerned about the 'purity' or the 'spirit' of the vintage classes, but come on... what is truly vintage about ANY of the cars breaking records in these classes? Maybe we should go back to recapped tires, and milk crates for seats, and ban fire systems, data loggers, and helmets while we're at it. Buddy, I've looked closely at your car, and you have to admit, it's no more 'vintage' than most of the other competitive cars currently running in vintage classes these days.

That may well be true, but it does meet all of the rules-even the ambiguous ignition rule!

FACT ~ There is no difference WHAT SO EVER between pre-programming an ignition curve into an ignition box and using an old Sun machine to do the exact same thing on a distributor.

That depends on what parameters are used. Programming a curve that retards the timing at X PSI, or that adds or subtracts timing at X RPM is certainly different.

So please, acknowledge the real concern about the wording of existing rule, add a few words to address those fears, and let's all move on and simply go racing.

COMPROMISE... Try it, you'll like it!

Pedro, I've had the opportunity to sit, chat, and drink beer with you. Your a bright guy, a good guy, and I truly think you're wording is a good COMPROMISE, even if it's not my first choice.

Good luck with it! :cheers:

You are obviously very passionate about our sport, and that's wonderful! Please just don't let your passion blind you-this is a good clarification of the ignition rule, IMHO, even if it's not best for every car and driver.
« Last Edit: September 03, 2013, 11:37:50 AM by 38flattie »
With sufficient thrust, pigs fly just fine. However, this is not necessarily a good idea. It is hard to be sure where they are going to land, and it could be dangerous sitting under them as they fly overhead. -- RFC 1925

You can't make a race horse out of a pig. But if you work hard enough at it you can make a mighty fast pig. - Bob Akin

http://www.flatcadracing.org/
http://youtu.be/89rVb497_4c

Offline V4F STR 60

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Re: ATTENTION IN THE PITS Rule Change Deadline September 1
« Reply #29 on: September 03, 2013, 09:54:03 PM »
Buddy, Great talking to you on the phone today.  Nothing like two strong, passionate, personalities, eh?  Let's do it over a beer next time though.   :cheers:  Pedro
Montana Dodge Boys Fast Four Special
1928 Dodge Brothers Vintage Flathead Four Cylinder Roadster & Lakester

Landspeed Records

Bonneville

2009 V4F/STR 115.681
2009 V4F/GR 116.439
2009 V4F/FR 117.597
2010 V4F/BSTR 127.352
2012 V4F/BFMR 130.843
2013 V4F/BGMR 142.956
2013 V4F/BFMR 143.254
2013 V4F/BGR 138.395
2013 V4F/BFR 138.984

El Mirage

2016 V4F/BGMR 140.961

www.facebook.com/MontanaDodgeBoys
www.fastfourspecial.com