Motorcycle "Records" - Really??

[RansomT]

So I guess we should have more record opportunities.  The bikes now have almost double the number that cars do.  Maybe the cars should all add a sidecar class and double up to catch up. 

I remember (?), i think it was JD years ago, that said we might consider using our entry number for our record.  And every time ol' 5669 went faster, he had a new record.

Jim Lattin would take issue with this -- I think he runs four vehicles under #69 from time to time.

We all have the same record opportunities.  Stan, do what I did 10 years ago. Stop racing cars and build a bike.  No one is stopping ya.... 

[doug]

Not to beat the horse or flog the dog, but here are some statistics for all.  I think there will never be an end to the cars v bikes opinions.  This is the first time since 2006 (maybe ever?), that there were more bike records than car records.  Based on the stats, it is an anomaly.  However, the numbers have been trending that way.  I am sure there are many theories on why that is.

I found a few interesting items.  More than half (58%) of the bike records were either late entry or class changes.  For car records, 43% of the records were that way.
93 bike records
pre-entry 39
post entry(on site or class change) 54

58 car records
pre-entry  33
post entry(on site or class change) 25

Here is a table of Speed Week since 2006 (2013 number of course are not finalized).

Car Entries Car Records Bike Entries Bike Records Total Entries Total Records Timed Runs % cars that set a record % bikes that set a record

2006 330 122 103 72 433 194 2018 37% 70%

2007 381 96 181 77 562 173 2278 25% 43%

2008 368 110 162 65 530 175 2488 30% 40%

2009 381 132 179 107 560 239 3108 35% 60%

2010 381 105 180 58 561 163 2852 28% 32%

2011 368 94 198 69 566 163 3152 26% 35%

2012 384 89 202 76 586 165 3050 23% 38%

2013 pending 373 58 208 93 581 151 2728 16% 45%

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

total 2966 806 1413 617 4379 1423 21674

avg 370.75 100.75 176.625 77.125 547.375 177.875 2709.25 27% 44%

This table is this years bike records. I included the existing record, how many times the record was bumped and whether it was bumped by the existing holder.  There are a few errors in the table. I am sure some of this will change once the SCTA is done with it. Enjoy.

# 1962B 7960B 1960B 1476B 476B 977B 8269B 1648B 735B 931B 2931B 376B 286B 3286B 3751B 375B 823B 3523B 1016B 9011B 901B 7134B 810B 5154B 1358B 3358B 445B 3358B 3350B 4451B 370B 3399B 574B 474B 571B 579B 576B 679B 6779B 7053B 7052B 740B 3414B 2169B 2469B 3419B 3418B 1800B 1803B 9876B 536B 7865B 1134B 8761B 7734B 876B 621B 1621B 1602B 5777B 5779B 5771B 5778B 8658B 8688B 865B 8608B 969B 867B 330B 209B J 837B  540B 1627B 4158B 4997B 9317B 632B 1189B 665B 1021B 1580B 1582B 194B 1141B 1581B 797B 858B 7919B 8080B 8081B 1114B 1102B 3412B 1110B 1856B 6661B

Engine 100 CC 100 CC 100 CC 100 CC 100 CC 1000 CC 1000 CC 1000 CC 1000 CC 1000 CC 1000 CC 125 CC 125 CC 125 CC 125 CC 125 CC 125 CC 125 CC 1350 CC 1350 CC 1350 CC 1350 CC 1350 CC 1350 CC 1350 CC 1350 CC 1350 CC 1350 CC 1350 CC 1350 CC 1650 CC 1650 CC 175 CC 175 CC 175 CC 175 CC 175 CC 175 CC 175 CC 175 CC 175 CC 175 CC 2000 CC 2000 CC 2000 CC 2000 CC 2000 CC 2000 CC 2000 CC 2000 CC 250 CC 250 CC 250 CC 250 CC 250 CC 250 CC 250 CC 250 CC 250 CC 350 CC 350 CC 350 CC 350 CC 350 CC 350 CC 350 CC 350 CC 350 CC 350 CC 350 CC 350 CC 350 CC 350 CC 350 CC 350 CC 500 CC 500 CC 500 CC 500 CC 650 CC 650 CC 650 CC 650 CC 650 CC 650 CC 650 CC 650 CC 650 CC 650 CC 650 CC 650 CC 750 CC 750 CC 750 CC 750 CC 750 CC U

Body APS-VF SC-VF SC-VG APS-BF APS-BG ? APS-F APS-F M-PBF MPS-VBF MPS-VBG APS-VG MPS-BF MPS-BG MPS-VF MPS-VG M-VF M-VG APS-PG APS-VF APS-VG A-VG M-PBG MPS-PG MPS-VBF MPS-VBG MPS-VG M-VBF M-VBG M-VG A-PBF APS-PG SC-PF SC-PG A-PG APS-PF APS-PG M-BF MPS-BF MPS-VG M-VF P-P A-BG A-PF A-PG APS-BF APS-BG SC-BF SC-BG SC-PF A-PF A-VF M-BG M-PF MPS-BG MPS-PF MPS-VF M-VF SC-G A-PBF A-PBG APS-PBF APS-PBG APS-VF APS-VG A-VF A-VG M-BF M-BG MPS-BF MPS-BF MPS-BG SC-VF SC-VF SC-VG A-VF A-VF MPS-BG SC-VG  P-PP P-P A-PF A-PG APS-PBG APS-PF APS-PF MPS-PF P-P SC-PG SCS-F SCS-G A-PBF A-PBG M-PBG P-PPB SC-PFG A-PBG

Entry Name SALINE TYSON SALINE TYSON SALINE TYSON TRI-MAC SPEEDSTERS TRI-MAC SPEEDSTERS PFLUM & WAGNER RACING JIM HOOGERHYDE SFMC SAN DIEGO MOTORCYCLES DAVE ARNOLD PAUL FRIEBUS PAUL FRIEBUS STEPHEN ROBERTS BMAC LAND SPEED RACING BMAC LAND SPEED RACING KARL MEREDITH KARL MEREDITH PRAIRIE DRIFTERS TIM MC LAUGHLIN DESTINATION/HUFF DOUBLE VISION DOUBLE VISION PERFORMANCE INDIAN LAURENT DUTRUEL TEAM SUBTLE CROWBAR BONNEVILLE BOBBER BONNEVILLE BOBBER BOB LEWIS BONNEVILLE BOBBER BONNEVILLE BOBBER BOB LEWIS O.M.R.A. BIKE #1 TEAM BENNETT LSR DAROLD CUMMINGS DAROLD CUMMINGS DAROLD CUMMINGS DAROLD CUMMINGS DAROLD CUMMINGS JOHN STONER-NO SENSE LSR JOHN STONER-NO SENSE LSR RETARDED SPARKS SPECIAL RETARDED SPARKS SPECIAL PIT BULL SCOTT GUTHRIE RACING JAY ALLEN RACING JAY ALLEN RACING SCOTT GUTHRIE RACING SCOTT GUTHRIE RACING GOLD WING LYON GOLD WING LYON  KUBO SPERANZA BRANT ROBINSDON SPORTSMAN FLYER ECOLE DE LA PERFORMANCE RED CUP SCREAMER CANTER/ROSENTHAL RACING RED CUP SCREAMER CANTER/ROSENTHAL RACING BROOKS MOTOR WORKS BROOKS MOTOR WORKS COREY BERTELSEN 0842 KAMPHIUS AUNT MARIA KAMPHIUS LANAPOTTR KAMPHIUS TL KELLY KAMPHIUS FRANK Z ECOLE DE LA PERFORMANCE 32110 ECOLE DE LA PERFORMANCE 32110 ECOLE DE LA PERFORMANCE 32110 ECOLE DE LA PERFORMANCE 32110 XN RACING XN RACING LOUIS WILSON XN RACING XN RACING SCOTT BAXTER BROOKS MOTOR WORKS BROOKS MOTOR WORKS SALINE TURNER-KTC PAUL FRIEBUS LE TOP RACING BROOKS MOTOR WORKS BULLET SHUNJI YOKOKAWA MARC LEININGER MARC LEININGER OLD AGE & TREACHERY LSR ANDERS JONSSON JIM LEININGER DAN WAGNER BUTLER / ACAT RACING BILL ANDERSON COSTELLA,CUNHA& BASSANO COSTELLA,CUNHA& BASSANO SCOTT GUTHRIE RACING SCOTT GUTHRIE RACING SCOTT GUTHRIE RACING SCOTT GUTHRIE RACING RICHARD KRCZAL STONEY FRITZ

Old Record open open open 48.910 81.869 ? 218.323 218.323 125.922 open open open open open 32.052 42.239 53.441 43.449 177.998 135.438 128.241 132.338 155.897 172.849 open open 160.078 open open 151.835 86.953 172.591 68.358 68.661 72.285 72.753 71.319 open open open open 99.700 172.627 169.309 169.966 open 170.465 99.058 87.947 146.196 78.048 86.715 98.475 79.198 99.445 80.758 open 75.359 120.016 open 15.851 open open 97.511 81.903 97.511 88.830 open 100.294 open open 102.643 open open 48.879 110.152 110.152 120.507 94.330 106.490 165.994 123.814 126.976 117.871 128.231 128.231 133.998 165.994 121.042 open open 96.091 111.791 129.134 open open open

Bump 1 *own record **42.179 30.469 36.744 **91.659 84.533 **185.25 221.583 *126.231 168.652 **167.944 79.220 40.357 **43.526 **82.494 75.106 **57.533 52.353 **181.397 **151.448 140.210 148.012 158.642 173.163 **149.676 **152.622 150.998 **159.42 150.548 149.496 97.916 196.843 **75.009 **74.175 **80.453 **84.324 **84.476 **75.828 73.086 **49.727 50.049 104.449 **190.736 **169.33 **172.414 **220.595 **215.853 *115.763 **97.264 **162.424 80.438 **92.221 126.607 83.148 **127.714 **85.816 82.486 **79.55 **133.324 **97.964 **96.975 **93.474 **98.873 **101.812 **86.818 106.622 **105.673 **119.103 **120.097 115.015 **121.178 68.421 **78.318 **78.428 110.729 **143.298 *106.719 **106.601 **170.828 **134.849 **130.713 110.352 *130.181 **135.891 167.319 121.553 176.547 **197.036 **128.822 **130.208 **131.298 133.625 **91.286 174.742

Bump 2 **not pre-entered **222.756 **180.659 84.440 79.059 **61.327 123.115 **111.839 156.389 169.684

Bump 3 222.850 170.654

Increase x x x 42.749 2.664 x 3.260 4.433 0.309 x x x x x 50.442 36.820 7.886 8.904 3.399 16.010 11.969 15.674 2.745 0.314 x x -9.080 x x -2.339 10.963 24.252 6.651 5.514 8.168 11.571 13.157 x x x x 4.749 18.109 0.021 2.448 x 45.388 16.705 9.317 16.228 2.390 5.506 28.132 3.950 28.269 5.058 x 4.191 13.308 x 81.124 x x 4.301 4.915 9.111 16.843 x 19.803 x x 18.535 x x 29.549 0.577 1.687 22.791 12.389 0.111 4.834 11.035 3.737 -7.519 1.950 28.158 1.893 4.660 0.511 x x 32.731 18.417 2.164 x x x

[SaltPeter]

So I guess we should have more record opportunities.  The bikes now have almost double the number that cars do.  Maybe the cars should all add a sidecar class and double up to catch up.  

I remember (?), i think it was JD years ago, that said we might consider using our entry number for our record.  And every time ol' 5669 went faster, he had a new record.

Jim Lattin would take issue with this -- I think he runs four vehicles under #69 from time to time.

I don't understand the point of this thread and I don't agree with the claims about Open Records.

I also don't get this quote I found this when I checked the Classes.

Cars                                               Bikes

Mod Roadster                             Production
Rear Engine Modified Roadster        Modified
Fuel-Gas Roadster                       Modified Partial Streamlined
Street Roadster                          Special Construction
Competition Coupe                      Special Construction Partial Streamlined
Altered Coupe                            Streamliner
Coupe                                       Sidecar
Vintage Oval Track                      Sidecar Streamliner
Midget Vintage Oval Track
Competition Ute
Altered Ute
Modified Coupe
Modified Ute
Modified Sports
Modified Pickup Truck
Modified Mid/Mini Pickup Truck
Production Coupe And Sedan
Production Ute
Grand Touring Sport
Production Pickup Truck
Production Mid/Mini Pickup Truck
Unlimited Diesel Truck
Modified Diesel Truck
Highway Hauler
Diesel Truck
Streamliner
Lakester


When you compare Car and Bike Classification it's not really straight forward.

Clearly Cars have more Vehicle Configurations while the Bikes have more Engine choices.

It's Chalk and Cheese, Apples and Oranges.......

We all run what we can, according to our preference and our budget, but in the end we are all simply trying to go fast.

As far as Records go, that's what defines us as a Motorsport, it what draws me to this Sport.

The great thing is, you can pretty much run anything, and you get your Speed recorded and if that is the aim then that's cool.

My Budget determined that I could actually compete if I ran a Bike.

From there I chose, based on my past knowledge and for me the best Bang for the Buck, a 250 2 stroke, and the plan was to evolve, Prod to Mod to Special Construction.  

This did not go quiet to plan as we had the Rain outs in 2011/12.

I ended up running an open Record twice simply because over here in Oz most of the 250 classes just happen to be Open. That is changing and the race is on.

Stay Cool

Pete  

[Koncretekid]

In reply to Dean's opening comments on this thread, I applaud your attention to detail with the records.  Very interesting.  If you have time, another interesting table would be one showing all the classes with open records, for bikes and for cars.  I think this would help newbies decide on what classes to build for, and to possibly get more people into our sport.

As many of us vintage bike racers have experienced, the worst thing that can happen to an organization is to start deleting some of the classes.  An example of this is the Period 2 Vintage bike racing in the Maritimes in Canada.  A few years ago a new organization took over the running of our races and promptly eliminated all classes before 1982, and all motor sizes under 500 cc.  The result was that about a dozen of us were left without a race class.  All but a couple of us have quit completely (and I essentially have) and there are now fewer racers competing.  Which means fewer people to pay the bills.

I never met a motorized vehicle that didn't interest me.

Tom

[Nortonist 592]

We're now on page four and still no one has told me where I can buy one (or more) of these records  I'm not getting any younger.  The trip to Bonneville isn't getting any shorter.  The sidecar isn't getting any faster.  So where the hell can I buy some of these records?

[donpearsall]

Ask "Dean Los Angeles" where you can buy records. Evidently he knows the secret to buying records with no effort at all.

I would advise you to buy several records at a time. That way you don't have to keep making the trip to Bonneville every year.

Don

[makr]

Excellent troll thread.

[desotoman]

I have no dog in this fight. In fact I am part owner in a bike that set 3 or 4 records at Bonneville on open records. At El Mirage we set an open record also but it did have a minimum speed we had to go over to set the record.

I could be off a few but I just counted and there are 975 possible Bike records, and there are 803 possible car records.

I could be completely wrong but I think the car guys don't understand why there are so many engine classes in the bike category, with so few cc between.

Tom G.

[salt27]

It looks like Dean has not been back on landracing since shortly after he started this thread.

I reread his post several times trying to comprehend what he was getting at.

I think I got his point but I don't agree with some of his comments.

I was a little angry and refrained from posting until the anger past.

At this point, I hope he continues to contribute to this site.

He is entitled to his opinion just as the rest of us are entitled to ours.

That said, this was a fantastic Speedweek for us, Don

[wobblywalrus]

Tom, the displacement classes are a tradition that goes way back to the engine sizes they made in the old days.  As an example, 50's, 100's and 175's are rare now.  They once were popular sizes for production bikes.  There is a big difference between these displacements percentage wise.  As a result, there are multiple classes.  This is the same for 250's, 350's, 500's, and 650's.  All of these were very popular displacements at one time and the distinctions between them were important.

Bike displacement is like the height of dress hemlines and tie widths.  The manufacturers constantly change the popular displacements so they appear to be fresh and innovative.  1,100 cc was a popular displacement a few w years back.  Now 400cc and 800cc are popular sizes.     

[JimL]

Had a little fun looking through the records list on SCTA.  There are duplicates of some classes, where it shows up to four records in the same class.  After working it out, it looks like 77 new bike records.

Curiously, 30 of them are in Vintage classes with H-D accounting for 10 and AMC getting 8.  Various brands fill this out.

Pushrod classes have 30 new records, Honda with 9 (only one less than 650cc), and Gilera and Buell with 5 each.  There were 10 different brands in this group.

Ohc and two-strokes had 17 records, Honda 7 and Yamaha 6.

Pushrods account for the most variety, tie for the most records, and have a larger proportion of engines above 500cc compared to Vintage.

Top two brands are H-D vintage and Honda pushrod (one 250 single and eight CX650 based engines in 650 and 750 classes.)

I might have a couple errors, it gets confusing after a while.  There arent many holes left to fill, and pushrod and ohc classes are getting pretty tough.  We managed 4 with our destroked 650 Honda pushrod twins,and both bikes left the salt with hurt engines.  Raising our rev lmit past 12,000 did not come without penalty, it seems, but I am real happy with that 163.829 return run on Sunday morning!

see you again, if'n I can find more blocks.

Regards, JimL

[edinlr]

After reading Doug's post #46 with the breakdown between cars and bikes, it is obvious that cars are not doing their part to set records!    Actually, it appears that car entries have leveled out, so the potential new records might have stabilized a bit too.  With the rise in bike entries, it is somewhat logical that they might get more records.  With the economy the way it has been, it is much cheaper to own and race a bike than a car.  When we got back from Bonneville this year, I went through all my costs for a "new" 1983 bike, a "new" 2001 trailer, gear, parts, 10 day's travel, gas, etc. and it was about $16,000.  Heck, this wouldn't pay for most of the car guy's engines, much less an race entire budget.  Oh, and $16,000 didn't "buy" me a record.  

[38flattie]

It’s because 29 of the records were bought. As soon as they paid the entry fee and ran on an open record.

But that’s not all.
I understand this. It’s called cherry picking. You find an open record or a slow record and run for it. But it’s hardly competitive.

Dean, I'm sure you're just stirring the pot, and you did a fine job! Lol!

I run a car, not a bike, but please tell me the above comment was simply to incite the masses, and not what you truly believe?

We set 2 records last year-both were open. Just to get to the salt took an extreme amount of work, as well you know. Both were in vintage classes.

This year, we ran in what should be faster classes, modified fuel classes, and upped the BFALT record. Guess what? The vintage gas records are both higher than the fuel class.

So, we 'bought' 2 records, and 'earned' the slower one? Maybe if we work harder, someday someone will think we are competitive?

Strangely, we worked for over 2 years to 'buy' those first records, and only 51 weeks to 'earn' a record!

[SaltPeter]

I could be completely wrong but I think the car guys don't understand why there are so many engine classes in the bike category, with so few cc between.

Tom G.

It is deceiving when you look at Engine Capacities, while it might not appear to be that much cc difference, percentage wise it's a different story.

I did some calculations and it appears that both Car and Bike Engine Classes except at the Smallest and Largest Capacities, have about a 20-30% spread between each Class.

It's just that, as Wobbly said, the engine sizes available to Bikes is simply greater.

You can still get 50cc Bikes and you can also get a 2300cc Bike. That's 4500% increase in capacity.

In the end Bikes and Cars, what difference does it make we can run either or both, and set Records or run for Speed.

Pete

[octane]

...It’s because 29 of the records were bought. As soon as they paid the entry fee and ran on an open record.
..... It’s called cherry picking....

Really ?

I must admit that when I read it I went:



Da'fq ( pardon my 'French' )


Here's a news-flash for you: nothing is black/white...there are all sorts of shades of grey.

I'm one of them who according to you 'bought' a record.
First of all ; when I started out I had no clue if there was a record in my class.
In fact I thought I was to run in another class until I was told that my bike
wasn't a 'P' ( push-rod ) but a 'V' (Vintage) because my good ole' Indian have
very short ( apparently NON-) push-rods.

I spend 1½-years of my spare-time and every available cent I made, building the bike...put it in a box..
air-freight it a billion miles across the Atlantic...with the truely invaluable help from the best people in the world
run it at Bonneville...fail miserably...freight it back....spend another year building..
..air-freight it over the big pond again...run it with some success...ESTABLISH a record

...and I 'bought' that

Care to check how I 'bought' that ?
Be my guest:

http://www.landracing.com/forum/index.php/topic,5849.0.html

Sorry if this makes me ever so tinybittyslightly...how can I put it?....'miffed'.


OK enough of this. Gotta get going updating my build-thread:

http://www.landracing.com/forum/index.php/topic,13079.0.html

BTW: I have NO clue if there is a record in the class that my new bike will run in.
That is not what this is about for me....yes: really !
You can applaud that, you can shake your head at that , you can choose not believe what I just said.
I don't give a flying f...f....front-fork.

It's the gawdhonest truth.

WHEN eventually I check to see if there IS a record, and if it turns out there ISN'T one,
I may have to change the name of the bike, and the thread, to:

'The Worlds Fastest Cherrypicker'

.....and of course be truly ashamed of myself.


Right





BTW: for EVERY SINGLE class ( and there's a WHOLE LOT of them) in which there is a record, there must at one point back,
have been a 'Cherrypicket' who established that.
Maybe we should make a club ?
Instead of being ashamed, we could be real bold and proud, and call it

'The Salt Pioneers Club'
'Those Who Dared First Club'
' The 'Feel Free To Beat My' Club'
or perhaps
the 'If It's SO Darn Easy, Why Don't You Do It-Club'

Ha, ha, ha...this is SO silly !