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Author Topic: Lug nut and Aluminum wheel question.  (Read 11016 times)
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xxobuick
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« on: July 22, 2013, 02:42:11 PM »

Hello Guys and Gals:

We were just going over the rule book with a fine tooth comb and found something we don't quite understand.  We are running one piece aluminum wheels up front and in the back.  They are both 4" wide.  We are running Front Runner Tires. 

Now are question is in the lug nut area.  The rule book states for all cars under 200 mph, which ours is, and the record is 138 or there abouts.  It states that the smallest part of the hex of a lug nut shall be larger than the largest part of the taper of the wheel mounting hole.  Lug nuts shall torque totally against a a wheels tapered surface with a minimum of 5/8" of stud engagement.


So the taper of the wheel is about .800" diameter where the lug nut seats.  Our lug nuts are .930" Diameter, so I believe we are good there, and we have extended studs that stick way out, so we have the .625" Stud engagement.

Now down on the page it also states about non ferrous wheels needing a 1/4" thick steel plate or large OD washers that are under the nuts. 

So does that mean the first paragraph under 2.G wheels only applies to steel wheels?

So does that also mean that you cannot run taper seat lug nuts and wheels with non ferrous wheels?

Would we have to modify our wheels to use the 1/4" retaining plate with flat nuts and make the wheel "hub concentric" rather than "lug concentric"?
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NathanStewart
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« Reply #1 on: July 22, 2013, 04:37:49 PM »

What exactly are you running for wheels?  Are they cast or forged?  Spun?  A lot of racing wheels have big thick steel insert rings inside of them... do yours?
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xxobuick
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« Reply #2 on: July 22, 2013, 06:24:38 PM »

They are a cast aluminum one piece wheel.  No steel insert. 
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NathanStewart
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« Reply #3 on: July 22, 2013, 07:43:51 PM »

I believe we used "mag" style lug nuts on our aluminum wheels with steel plate combo.  The plate and the wheels were machined to locate off the shank of the nut.  Could you machine the taper off the wheels and then machine in a flat spot to accept a big heavy washer?
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xxobuick
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« Reply #4 on: July 22, 2013, 08:37:09 PM »

Yea, we can do that.  I was just clarifying if thats what "needed" to be done to satisfy the rules.  The rules on this subject are not the clearest.  I guess we will do that then.  I was just curious if anyone else has run aluminum cast wheels with a taper seat lug nut.
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jimmy six
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« Reply #5 on: July 23, 2013, 05:24:18 PM »

If you are concerned this is what I would do and have done. After long studs are installed, attach the wheels as normal using proper taper nuts. Make a 1/4" plate with your hole pattern, place it on the long studs and install 1" lug nuts flat face down. The rear of my roadster has been this way for 15 years. Front the same way with a hole for the hub. . . . . . . Good Luck.

PS: I use this for non-taperd wheels too
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Steve Walters
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« Reply #6 on: July 24, 2013, 01:37:48 AM »

I have the same wheels, the only way to get them to center properly is with the bulge tapared nuts which is mandated by the manufacture.  I spent 100 bucks for a machine shop to whittle out hub spacers for them, and they wouldn't center properly.  They center the wheel with the tapered lug holes, and then just punch an oversized hole in them to fit all applications, and models.

Steve
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Wa's Bad Banana
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JR529
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« Reply #7 on: July 24, 2013, 02:22:01 PM »

If you are concerned this is what I would do and have done. After long studs are installed, attach the wheels as normal using proper taper nuts. Make a 1/4" plate with your hole pattern, place it on the long studs and install 1" lug nuts flat face down. The rear of my roadster has been this way for 15 years. Front the same way with a hole for the hub. . . . . . . Good Luck.

PS: I use this for non-taperd wheels too

I used this exact same method and it worked perfectly. I had the plates cut by DC Water Jet. It was pretty painless once I accepted the idea that I had to do it.
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xxobuick
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« Reply #8 on: July 24, 2013, 10:26:16 PM »

Thanks guys.  I will make flanges to go over the existing tapered lug nuts and then use a flat flanged nut to retain it all.  So essentially there will be 10 lug nuts on a 5 lug wheel. 
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LSR Mike
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« Reply #9 on: July 25, 2013, 03:11:11 PM »

The wheel won't come off! easily!
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Mike M.
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jimmy six
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« Reply #10 on: July 25, 2013, 07:56:04 PM »

XXO- At 138 mph and under a 29" tire I'm not sure what is needed. I started using the second plates when I went to "factory" aluminum wheels and over 200. I also first put on the plates with 29" diameter steel wheels and Firstone front runners at 160.

As Dan always says " the minimum is in the rule book"....... Good luck..have fun..go fast....
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NathanStewart
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« Reply #11 on: July 25, 2013, 11:42:31 PM »

... be safe.  wink
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El Mirage 200 MPH Club Member
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« Reply #12 on: July 25, 2013, 11:59:21 PM »

Years ago. when we were running 15" diameter wheels on the back of our lakester, I MADE lugnuts from straight shanks of "longish" 3/4" Grade 8 capscrews by machining off the threaded portion, turning down the unthreaded shank to 11/16". "gun-drilling" the head and 11/16" shank and threading the bored holes to 1/2"NF. I ended up with 1 1/8" hex headed lugnuts for mag type wheels....it meets the letter, if not the intent of the rule - which was NOT originally intended to apply to mag type wheels (which is whwere many inspectors took it to also apply.

I posted elsewhere on a similar topic about other alternate methods of complying with this rule.

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Steve Walters
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« Reply #13 on: July 26, 2013, 11:34:13 AM »

There you go, Fastman I agree with you 100%.

 The rule probably came about when someone had a 10 gauge aluminuim wheel which they left on the car over a year or maybe two, and the combination of the disimiler metals along with the salt made for a bad electolisis problem and the wheel failed at speed.  So the rule was written to combat that issue.  The mag type 3/4" thick aluminum wheels were not intended to fall under this, mounting them any other way than the manufacturers intent is not good.

Jimmy's fix would get you past the inspector with no common sense, but that is about all it is doing, maybe giving you a lower center of gravity, with the extra wieght.

I found the correctly tapered 1" lug nuts, for mine but the tapered hole is recessed about an 1/8' inch and it eats up two much of the lugnut lands to properly torque with the bigger socket.

Steve   
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NathanStewart
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« Reply #14 on: July 26, 2013, 02:40:22 PM »

That's a bit of a stretch there Steve.  The intent of the rule is to increase the lug nut clamping area on non-ferrous wheels.  What can happen is in a spin where there is a lot of side load being applied to the wheel, the lug nuts can pull through the wheel.  The best way to combat this is to better distribute the clamping force that retains the wheel thus the requirement for plates or big washers. The rule book says all non-ferrous wheels so that's that.  If someone thinks it should be different they should submit a rule change (which are due by Sept 1 BTW). 

Adding a plate on top of the lug nuts that hold on the wheel doesn't do any good if the plate isn't touching the wheel.
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El Mirage 200 MPH Club Member
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