Author Topic: MPS - G/F - 250 Records  (Read 6965 times)

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Offline SaltPeter

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MPS - G/F - 250 Records
« on: July 06, 2013, 11:08:33 PM »
What model bikes were the SCTA MPS/250 records set on, G-156.511 - F-157.576, anyone know?

Pete
The Mission is to go as fast as possible along on that old Road Less Traveled.

Offline Stan Back

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Re: MPS - G/F - 250 Records
« Reply #1 on: July 07, 2013, 02:33:40 PM »
Both were Yamahas, if that's a help.
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Offline Seldom Seen Slim

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Re: MPS - G/F - 250 Records
« Reply #2 on: July 07, 2013, 03:18:39 PM »
Well, the M/PSG says it was Scott Guthrie's record from SW 1990.  Once in a while he looks in here -- maybe he'll see the query and send a note explaining stuff.
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Offline edinlr

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Re: MPS - G/F - 250 Records
« Reply #3 on: July 07, 2013, 10:44:55 PM »
I think in the old days they let factory race bikes run in Modified, I seem to remember him running TZ 350's and TZ500's.  They have to run in altered now.  It may be a long time before a 350 street bike can touch that record.
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Offline SaltPeter

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Re: MPS - G/F - 250 Records
« Reply #4 on: July 08, 2013, 01:14:16 AM »

They are pretty big speeds, I wondered if they might been TZs, it's just one of those things then if they were.

Oh well nothing like a challange. :cheers:

Pete
The Mission is to go as fast as possible along on that old Road Less Traveled.

Offline wfojohn

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Re: MPS - G/F - 250 Records
« Reply #5 on: July 08, 2013, 11:20:53 AM »
Pete,
Yes that is a challenge. We now have to use street or dirt bikes to try to take down records set with factory built roadracers. I agree the roadracers belong in Altered but I doubt the people allowing the rule change gave much thought about the existing records that were set when it was legal to run Modified with them. It seems like some of those records will probably never be challenged due to no 2 strokes being built for road use that would be Modified legal.

Offline JimL

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Re: MPS - G/F - 250 Records
« Reply #6 on: July 08, 2013, 08:24:00 PM »
The rulebook states, M class requires the engine be same brand as chassis.  It does not require the engine be from a particular model or type, just a motorcycle engine from the same brand.  Factory race bikes, complete, are limited to A.  For example, there are folks still running various factory flat-track/roadrace Harley engines in street based chassis, with some very good M records to show for their work.

You have to make the engine fit without cutting the main frame spars or backbone, so it might take a different Yamaha with some room in the chassis to accept that TZ type or clone engine.  Some of the later FZR bikes could be very good with an engine swap.  I like to think of M bikes as the Gas Coupe or Comp Coupes, and A bikes as the Lakesters. 8-)

Truth is, its now possible to build more power than the factory racers had, but you'll not succeed with stock street bike cooling.  That is one of the advantages of the factory race stuff; cooling that could go the distance.  Also, you can now use better streamlining than those race bikes had, such as an A type fairing and front fender.

Fun stuff, and a great challenge to fit it all into a street chassis.  You should do it!

Regards, JimL

Offline SaltPeter

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Re: MPS - G/F - 250 Records
« Reply #7 on: July 08, 2013, 10:13:20 PM »
The rulebook states, M class requires the engine be same brand as chassis.  It does not require the engine be from a particular model or type, just a motorcycle engine from the same brand.  Factory race bikes, complete, are limited to A.  For example, there are folks still running various factory flat-track/roadrace Harley engines in street based chassis, with some very good M records to show for their work.

You have to make the engine fit without cutting the main frame spars or backbone, so it might take a different Yamaha with some room in the chassis to accept that TZ type or clone engine.  Some of the later FZR bikes could be very good with an engine swap.  I like to think of M bikes as the Gas Coupe or Comp Coupes, and A bikes as the Lakesters. 8-)

Truth is, its now possible to build more power than the factory racers had, but you'll not succeed with stock street bike cooling.  That is one of the advantages of the factory race stuff; cooling that could go the distance.  Also, you can now use better streamlining than those race bikes had, such as an A type fairing and front fender.

Fun stuff, and a great challenge to fit it all into a street chassis.  You should do it!
Regards, JimL

I was just asking the question because I wanted to understand what the benchmark was based upon when making a comparison.

The Modified Class is intended for “modified” production models and not purpose-built racing bikes.
This class includes all On Road, On-Off Road and Off Road only models and limited production models
(more than 50).
This class does not include factory produced road racing or any other “works” racing models.


That's the current rules, so I could not use a RS250 Honda or a TZ250 Yamaha in Modified, now, according to this.

For me in the M and A smaller capacity classes, a 2 Stroke is still the weapon of choice, even though development on Road based engines stopped in the mid 90's.
250 Road Race engines however continued until early 2000's and 125's into 2010, but getting a Works Aprilia engine??.

There is a marked difference between potential output of a TZ or a RS Road Race engines 85-95 HP and a RGV, NSR, KR1s or a TZR Road engine that max out at 70-75 HP.

So for A classes the RS or TZ is the go.

We were lucky down here in OZ as the early MOD 250 records were Open or set by 4 Stroke/4cyl CBR250rr Honda's that are still eligible, and in recent years a few of us are set on raising the 250 Bar using Smokers  :-D

The Kawasaki KR1s has Production records at Bonneville 139 and El Mirage 141 which is very impressive and realistically are our initial benchmarks.

An RGV based bike ran 131 mph this year, but has a lot more to come I'd say. My RGV APS class bike had a few issues so it is still an unknown.
I will also be having a crack at the M-G 250 on a naked NSR250 Honda next year and the other two RGV's based bikes will be back in PROD and MOD. 8-) 8-)

In the end it's about having a go and running what you can, whatever that is. It will be an interesting next few seasons in 250 world with our Smokers and a certain Blown CBR Honda, onward and upward I say  :cheers:

Pete

« Last Edit: July 08, 2013, 10:17:17 PM by SaltPeter »
The Mission is to go as fast as possible along on that old Road Less Traveled.

Offline wobblywalrus

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Re: MPS - G/F - 250 Records
« Reply #8 on: July 09, 2013, 12:13:22 AM »
Those records at the beginning of this thread always looked pretty solid to me, even when considering they were on race bikes.  The altitude at Bonneville was a handicap for those NA motors.  Those folks back then has some talent.

Offline stay`tee

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Re: MPS - G/F - 250 Records
« Reply #9 on: July 10, 2013, 06:58:06 AM »
Pete, in the FIM Worlds Records for partially streamlined 250cc, an Aprilla RS250 holds the record at 263.328kph/163.659mph (Bonneville), now thats tuff considering its the average of two runs, so one has to be at a higher speed than the record shown, :-),,

Aprillas are selling in Oz for 4-5 grand,  :? :-D,,
First Australian to ride a motorcycle over 200mph at Bonneville,,,

Offline SaltPeter

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Re: MPS - G/F - 250 Records
« Reply #10 on: July 10, 2013, 09:09:50 AM »
Pete, in the FIM Worlds Records for partially streamlined 250cc, an Aprilla RS250 holds the record at 263.328kph/163.659mph (Bonneville), now thats tuff considering its the average of two runs, so one has to be at a higher speed than the record shown, :-),,

Aprillas are selling in Oz for 4-5 grand,  :? :-D,,

Ron

I believe that the FIM Record was set on a Aprilia RSW 250, the customer version of the Aprilia works Road Racer and
not an Aprilia RS250 Road Bike that has a Suzuki RGV Reed Valve engine in it just like the one I am running in my Lil Red Buzzbox.

The engine in those Road Race Aprilias are Rotary Valve V Twins and were the most powerful of the 250s, supposedly making 100-105hp :-o :-o before they were canned the class in MotoGP, and I believe Ant West's 2007 Bike is for sale for $57,000 US :cry: :cry:. RSW 125s go for around 17,000 Euro.

Pete
The Mission is to go as fast as possible along on that old Road Less Traveled.

Offline Seldom Seen Slim

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Re: MPS - G/F - 250 Records
« Reply #11 on: July 10, 2013, 09:19:04 AM »
"...considering its the average of two runs, so one has to be at a higher speed than the record shown..."

Well, not strictly required although most likely.  That is, the two runs might have been at exactly the same speed. :-)
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Offline dw230

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Re: MPS - G/F - 250 Records
« Reply #12 on: July 10, 2013, 03:04:52 PM »
When has that happened?

DW
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Offline Seldom Seen Slim

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Re: MPS - G/F - 250 Records
« Reply #13 on: July 10, 2013, 04:02:16 PM »
Dan, please note that I did use the word "might". :roll:
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Offline dw230

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Re: MPS - G/F - 250 Records
« Reply #14 on: July 10, 2013, 04:46:18 PM »
Saw that, chain pulling.

DW
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Don't be Karen, be Beth