Author Topic: Crimp or solder battery terminals?  (Read 54329 times)

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Offline SteveM

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Crimp or solder battery terminals?
« on: July 02, 2013, 01:26:13 PM »
Thoughts on crimping versus soldering of battery terminals and cable ends?

We have a very large crimper at work (like the size of a big pair of bolt cutters), but I have always had a personal preference for metallurgical bonds like those achieved with soldering.

There's a lot of online support for crimping and heat shrinking, but it would be great to hear what you guys have to say.

Steve.
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Offline manta22

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Re: Crimp or solder battery terminals?
« Reply #1 on: July 02, 2013, 01:37:37 PM »
Steve;

A good crimp is OK. Bell Labs did research years ago on crimped wire connections and their conclusion was that a crimped connection was excellent as long as it was a gas-tight crimp. The wire and the ferrule needed to be crushed together so that they bond and do not allow entry of even gas into the ferrule. Eventually this will allow oxidation and corrosion.

A soldered joint is by its nature "gas tight" so that is not a problem. If you use rosin-core solder the joint will be OK but an acid-core solder will leave residue that can't be cleaned out of the wire strands. Due to solder wicking up between the wire strands, the wire will be made stiff for some length from the soldered joint-- don't allow vibration to flex the wire or it will fatigue and break around that point.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ

Offline wheelrdealer

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Re: Crimp or solder battery terminals?
« Reply #2 on: July 02, 2013, 02:55:00 PM »
For what t is worth.

In 2011 I had crimped cables. When I disassembled the car I noticed salt water had wicker up about 1/4 of the strands on 1/0 wire as high as 1 inch. When I peeled back the insulation the copper was green and nasty. It was hidden other than cutting the insulation off of the cable. I replaced all of the 1/0 cables this year with soldered ends and adhesive heat shrink tubing.  I think the good thick adhesive lined shrink tubing is the trick. My hope is it will keep the wet salty moosh from wicking up the cable strands. Also using rubber cable end covers over the 1/0 terminals. I thought about coating the copper terminals, nuts and studs with dielectric grease to ward off the salt gremlins.

BR
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Offline desotoman

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Re: Crimp or solder battery terminals?
« Reply #3 on: July 02, 2013, 02:58:17 PM »
Steve,

The biggest problem with the average guy crimping wires into lugs is that they usually don't have access to the right tools for the job.  You want to use tools made for the job, like T&B (Thomas &Betts) or other tools that are made specifically for Electricians. Over the years I have used hydraulic and manual presses for lugs from 750 MCM wire size on down, and never ever had any problems with the wire or lugs. For Bonneville you would want to put heat shrink tubing over the lugs and wire to protect it from moisture.

If I did not have access to the right tools I would solder the joint. For a Battery I would  only use welding cable wire. JMO.

Tom G.

PS. I forgot to say that I am not a fan of V type crimpers, the kind that push a V into a V receiver that you can buy from any specialty automotive store. I personally like the type that take a die for the specific size wire you are crimping. They usually have four or more sides and creates a circular pressure from the outside to the inside of the lug. Once again JMO.
« Last Edit: July 02, 2013, 05:21:47 PM by desotoman »
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Offline SteveM

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Re: Crimp or solder battery terminals?
« Reply #4 on: July 02, 2013, 03:24:51 PM »
The crimping tool we have should be up to the task of making a good crimp.  I don't think the tool will be the limiting factor. 

It's a Penn-Union TDM-250...



Standard set of sheetmetal snips shown for comparison.

I'll be using some #1 welding cable (ultra-fine strands).  The only way I'm familiar with soldering a lug like this is to place the lug, open end up, in a vise, and melt the solder into the lug, then jam the end of the wire down into the liquid solder.

In either case, I will definitely invest in some of the rubber, adhesive heat shrink tubing.



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Offline Seldom Seen Slim

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Re: Crimp or solder battery terminals?
« Reply #5 on: July 02, 2013, 03:52:41 PM »
My training in soldering is for ham radio - small gauge wire - but it still is clear that it's necessary to heat the work (wire and terminal/lug), not just the solder, to get a properly-made joint.  You'll have a hard time, no doubt, in getting the heavy wire hot without melting the insulation.  But pushing the cold wire into hot solder will likely not give very good adhesion of the solder to the wire - and corrosion can be the result.
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Offline gande

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Re: Crimp or solder battery terminals?
« Reply #6 on: July 02, 2013, 05:26:23 PM »
Either way think about using clear with glue heatshrink. If you see green you have a problem. If you are going to crimp look into Kopr-Shield from Thomas and Betts. Same theory as die electric grease but it claims to aide connectivity. Tin plated battery cable from a boat shop or ebay can reduce corrosion.

Gary

Offline racefanwfo

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Re: Crimp or solder battery terminals?
« Reply #7 on: July 02, 2013, 07:45:32 PM »
I tryed to solder a battery cable and clamp for a friends mini back hoe the problem that i had was getting the cable hot enough to get the solder to flow into the cable but it was to hot for the clamp and it melted. We ended up using a clamp where you slide the wire under a flat plate and tighten a bolt on either side of the plate to hold the wire in place. I agree that melting solder into a clamp and then shoving a cold wire into the hot solder is not the way to go. Why don't you just have some battery cables custom made by a pro.
« Last Edit: July 02, 2013, 07:47:50 PM by racefanwfo »
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Offline manta22

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Re: Crimp or solder battery terminals?
« Reply #8 on: July 02, 2013, 09:42:34 PM »
Usually those big lugs meant to be soldered onto the wire are cup- type. This keeps the solder from just running out the open end of ordinary lugs. If you melted a terminal (Lug... whatever you call them) it was WAY too hot. Solder melts at around 650F. A 63% solder alloy is optimum for electrical work.

A huge old-fashioned soldering iron would work, if you can find one. 200 watt irons aren't too common these days. A small propane torch works well but oxy-acetylene is too hot.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ

Offline wheelrdealer

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Re: Crimp or solder battery terminals?
« Reply #9 on: July 02, 2013, 09:57:44 PM »
The crimping tool we have should be up to the task of making a good crimp.  I don't think the tool will be the limiting factor. 

It's a Penn-Union TDM-250...



Standard set of sheetmetal snips shown for comparison.

I'll be using some #1 welding cable (ultra-fine strands).  The only way I'm familiar with soldering a lug like this is to place the lug, open end up, in a vise, and melt the solder into the lug, then jam the end of the wire down into the liquid solder.

In either case, I will definitely invest in some of the rubber, adhesive heat shrink tubing.


I have crimped envy! I buy heat shrink from these guys, http://www.buyheatshrink.com/

They sell is in bulk lengths. I buy it cut to 4' lengths. They have thin wall, heavy wall with or without adhesive.

Just in case some is looking for a good source.

BR

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Offline salt27

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Re: Crimp or solder battery terminals?
« Reply #10 on: July 02, 2013, 10:22:00 PM »
My preference is to crimp, then solder and then use a heat shrink rated for underground usage.

The crimp creates a mechanical connection the solder fills the voids and creates a bond and the glue in the heat shrink makes it water proof.

This is how we repair broken under ground wires.

If you only crimp and do not solder make sure to coat the wire and fitting with an oxide inhibiter.

 Don
« Last Edit: July 03, 2013, 01:18:45 AM by salt27 »

Offline Dean Los Angeles

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Re: Crimp or solder battery terminals?
« Reply #11 on: July 03, 2013, 11:10:59 AM »
Quote
My preference is to crimp, then solder and then use a heat shrink rated for underground usage.

I agree.

Either one by itself will create the necessary area of contact for electrical flow with zero resistance. Protection against corrosion is mandatory.
If it's done right. The number of ways you can screw this up is infinite, based on what I have seen professionals, and jerks that think they are pass as fine work.

Check the temperature of the terminal and wire after a run. If it isn't at ambient, then something is wrong.

The boat guys have been fighting this for as long as electrical circuits have been around.

Quote
Solder vs. Crimp: National Marine Electronics Association standards state that solder shall not be the sole means of mechanical connection in any circuit (with the exception of certain-length ship's battery cables). If inclined to add solder to a lug terminal, solder it after you apply the crimp. A good solder joint is bright and shiny.

If you see corrosion on the wire replace the wire. Don't screw around with cutting back to "good" wire.

A bad solder joint or crimp joint looks like . . . Oh, hell. Do the homework.
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Offline SteveM

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Re: Crimp or solder battery terminals?
« Reply #12 on: July 03, 2013, 11:56:10 AM »
Good discussion!

Any tips for crimping and soldering, especially on battery-sized cables?  For smaller wires, this is much simpler.

Here's my proposal for larger (i.e. #1 or larger)....

1) Flux the end of the wire before crimping.

2) Crimp it

3) Heat the crimped connector with a propane torch, while keeping the nearby insulation cool by wrapping with a wet rag.

4) Feed in the solder

5) Heat shrink tubing.  I like the idea of the clear heat shrink, to see if there's any funny business going on.

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Offline manta22

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Re: Crimp or solder battery terminals?
« Reply #13 on: July 03, 2013, 12:48:47 PM »
Make SURE that the flux is not acid- based-- that guarantees corrosion. Plumbing stuff is usually acid flux.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ
Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ

Offline SteveM

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Re: Crimp or solder battery terminals?
« Reply #14 on: July 03, 2013, 01:43:02 PM »
I'll go check the stash in the engineering dept. :-D
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